PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

itsamitsi
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PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by itsamitsi » July 12th, 2015, 5:52 pm

I changed the oil in my PC at 2000k as Mitsubishi don't for the 1500k service, they only check it. I found it to be absolutely filthy, made my hands black. I checked it today after doing 2050k's approx since i changed it and its filthy again. I have used Caltex Delo in it which i have used for many years in lots of other diesels including my 40+ year old tractors and they don't dirty it up like that. How would it go doing 15000k on the crap oil the stealership use? I imagine it would be treacle by then. Have other owners with the 4D56T engine found this too? I can't see why it filthies it up so quick as it is a common rail with all the modern filtering on it so it should be cleaner for longer.
Paul W

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour

Unread post by Shann Low » July 12th, 2015, 7:47 pm

Whats a PC?
I am assuming its sump oil your talking about?
The newest diesel oils have huge amount of detergent in the add pack. The idea is that the detergent keeps the soot in suspension until you drain it out, at oil change time. If it settled out it would form black gunk coating every component inside your engine like back in the bad old days.

4 options to consider.

1. Shorter oil change periods (5000km's?)
2. Bypass Oil Filtering with sub micron (cotton wound) filter/s.
3. Centrifugal oil filtering.
4. Combination of both of the above.

Soot in suspension is a wear agent so less is better.

Back in the day I bought a 2.5 TD 93 bitsamissing Triton new & my old man 6 months later bought the identical vehicle also except his was a 94 manufacture vehicle. Identical in every way!

My service manual said 5000 km services & his said 10,000km services! Same oil & same engine - why the difference?

Customers complained about the frequency and cost of servicing so 'oil engineers' at the behest of the manufacturers engineers, changed the rating of the oil to allow it to run 10,000 kms between services + change the manual and everyone's happy!

So 5,000km or 10,000 km servicing is "subjective" at best, cleaner = better for engine longevity.

IF you have enhanced (sub micron &/or centrifugal) oil filtering, well some places say you can go 20,000 kms between services BUT they suggest used oil analysis half way (10,000km's) just to be sure.

Me personally I go 5000km servicing with sub micron oil bypass filtering and when I change my oil its still clear, if you wipe the dipstick on clean white tissue paper - there's the slightest 'grey' tinge but pretty much its still clean / clear.

Normal oil filter cartridge will take out particulates above about 28 thou....

By Pass filtering will scrub that oil clean down to less than 1 micron soot in suspension.

Centrifugal oil filtering will remove the sub 1 micron soot.

All 3 will keep you oil clean!

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I use one of these cotton wound replacement sub micron filters.
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Centrifugal "spinner" oil filters - will take out the finest of sub micron soot that even a sub micron cotton wound filter misses.

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But its a messy process.. like scraping black butter out of a tub with a knife...

The old discovery diesels used to have a screw off disposable/throwaway spinner cartridge that you replaced every 20,000 km's which is quicker & cleaner.

One of the difficulties with using a centrifugal oil spinner filter is where you locate it in the engine bay.
The inner filter cartridge spins at up to 20,000 or 30,000 rpms - which is how the centrifugal force separates out the finest of soot particulates.
It's oil pressure from the oil pump that spins up the inner cartridge to such high rpms that the soot gets separated out and the clean oil flows up over the top rim of the inner spinning cartridge then flows back DOWN to the engine sump via a pipe and gravity.

So in order to install one.. you need to find a way to get that oil back to the sump - and typically it can be done with a nipple threaded into the side of the sump above the full level, but generally newish vehicle owners are reluctant to thread a nipple into the side of thin sump metal lest it comes loose and oil leaks - engines seize from loss of oil.

Another method is to "T joint" into the side of the oil dipstick and run the oil under gravity back to the sump that way - but it requires brazing skills to do so isn't really a bolt on kit type solution.

The "easiest" way is thru the top of the rocker cover oil filler cap - with a banjo bolt type fitting.

Image

The "difficulty" being that most oil fill caps are located on top of the rocker cover which is NEAR the top of the engine under the bonnet so where do you mount a oil spinner filter high enough in the engine bay that gravity will take the oil back to the filler cap to get to the sump?

And this trips up a lot of people from employing centrifugal oil spinner filters.

For sub micron OIl Bypas filters - you need a spot where you can hive off say 10% of the pressurized oil from the oil pump - scrub it clean and return it to the sump! So similar issues - where do you tap into the pressurized oil pressure system and where do you return the oil to the sump?

Some vehicles are more suited to do this from a engineered plumbing point of view and some aren't.

The BEST (easiest) way would be... whats called an engineered exported oil manifold!

Image
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You can see this is a engineered oil block adapter that goes between a oil filter and the oil filter mount, and allows oil to be hived off for cooling and / or filtering purposes & returned to the normal position within the engine to continue on to the sump or around the engine.

Then you can run that oil feed line/s to say an oil cooler first and the return line to a mount under the bonnet in the engine bay where spinner filter and or sub micron cotton wound filters mount and then back to the original filter location & its then possible to have aftermarket oil cooling and filtering - and keep triton oil squeaky clean if that's what owners really want!
Frequent oil change intervals? Upside, cleaner oil with less soot = less wear. Downside = It costs more and is more inconvenient to do.

The thing is you have to get someone to engineer the oil filter adapter plate and hoses and mounting plates for sub micron and spinner filters... find a location to mount the plate thats easily accessible for oil change time & high enough to run the oil from spinner filter via gravity back thru the dip stick or oil filler cap etc etc.

It's technical sort of 'engineering' that is different for each model of vehicle & if you get it wrong - and someone soil leaks and their engine seizes & you created & sold the kit - well potentially you face a lot of warranty and law suit claims - so no one makes the kits basically coz the risks are too high.

Its not hard to do the actual engineering these days with CAD CAM and 3D printing & Lost sand casting of alloys etc - especially if you sub the manufacturing work out to China... but who wants to take the risk with their (or someone elses) engine these days.

The REAL question is, why don't the manufacturers bring the darn engines out with this stuff from new?

The trouble with tritons and other small high capacity intercooled turbo diesel engines is - we know what they need to run clean - the technology exists - its just that its not commercial viable with risk factors to manufacture and sell 'after market' exported oil manifold kits with sub micron and centrifugal oil filtering components coz the first DIY guy that gets the plumbing wrong or screws it up at installation, and his engine is "toasted" will sue your pants off.

There doesn't seem to be any 'readily available' by pass oil filtering kits for Tritons on line that I can find.

I managed to find one for my F 250 but thats coz its a USA made vehicle & they have 300 million population so such after market bolt on 'kits' are viable in that market place & the Navistar TD T444E engine (7.3 liter) already has oil return line bolt positions cast into the block and oil pump body etc

Not so the Tritons.

Frustrating really coz the little 4 cyl triton engines would benefit greatly from cleaner oil IMHO.

So unless your an engineer type who can make your own components and prepared to accept the risk if you get it wrong, or can afford to pay some engineering shop to make you the adaptors and manifolds and buy your own filters etc & install your own system - what can you do?

My Lad has a new (2014) Triton also, so its something we have been considering (i.e how to make a system, that could be sold as an aftermarket DIY bolt on kit), but the commercial risks are just too high...

Damned if you do and damned if you don't - which is probably why the big boys like ARB etc don't offer any off the shelf solution.

itsamitsi
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by itsamitsi » July 12th, 2015, 8:11 pm

Nah PC is the current Mitsy Challenger. A 4000K old engine shouldn't be dirtying up the oil that quick. I've owned many diesels in my time but this one is the worst. I have done some googling and found it's pretty common with the 4D56T engines. I had a 4D56 powered 89 L300 Mits van about 20 years ago and it did dirty the oil up quick but thats old school, the current crop should be way better than that. And yes i will be doing 5K filter and oil changes with this one.
Paul W

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 12th, 2015, 9:26 pm

Image

Oil problems with excessive soot in Bitsamissing Triton 2.5 T diesels isn't "new"

I goes back a ways - the first engine did it, and the rebuilt engine also did it - so in my opinion it's a design issue.

Soot readings of '169' are way above 'normal' for a rebuilt engine with only 90,000 km's.

Fe (iron) wear levels are also a little high, and indicate high wear levels due to the high soot levels in the oil.

I personally think Tritons T/diesels, are a little engine that would benefit greatly from supplemental oil filtering and frequent oil change intervals.

I suspect owners would flock to an after market supplemental oil filtering option, if it existed.

I know from 2 engines in that vehicle, and over 500,000 km's (and another 300,000 in the other one) that they run filthy black in the oil department compared to other TDiesels I have owned (80 series IHD-T 4.2 and the F 250 T444E 7.3 liter Navistar.

I've run used oil analysis to know the differences... between them and other TDiesels.

Personally I wouldn't own another TD Triton myself, UNLESS I could run supplemental oil filtering...of some kind.
Thats why the lad and I have been trying to work out what we can do with his BEFORE it becomes an issue.

If you want 'longevity' from the engine then its probably worth the engineering cost to do it right.

BUT

An easier option might be - to do 5000kms oil changes and trade them for new every 100,000km's & let the 2nd owner deal with the problems!

The biggest issue I had with my own Triton was keeping it too long (2 engines and 3 gear boxes too long).

They aren't a vehicle to keep for 15 years - unless you want to become your mechanics best customer.

When I eventually sold it - one of my kids saw it parked on the side of the freeway with its rear diff center scattered in parts down the freeway! :eek:

Got rid of it just in time. :D

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 12th, 2015, 11:36 pm

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/ ... e=BMK23-EA

Image

Apparently these "universal" AMSOIL Universal dual remote filter can be ordered with an adapter plate to fit up to the Tritons oil filter mount on the engine.

That gives you your standard filter, and a bypass sub micron filter!

It's an option to consider maybe!.

itsamitsi
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by itsamitsi » July 14th, 2015, 9:15 pm

That looks like an effective critter. I'm going to try the easy things first like stopping EGR gasses and oil entering the combustion process and see how that works for starters. If it still dirties the oil quickly then the low micron filtration may get a run.
Paul W

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 14th, 2015, 9:52 pm

I am just wondering - if you 'block off' the EGR system, will that void your warranty on a 4,000km engine?
An Oil Catch Can installed into the EGR system?
I doubt if the soot is getting into the oil from EGR (But stand to be corrected if anyone knows different).
Why the soot would get down past the compression & oil scraper rings on 2.5 Triton's - I can't say.
Whether its something to do with the low sulfur diesel we import, I also don't know.
I emailed Amsoil - to see if they know what adapter plate thread details (Size and pitch) the 2.5 Triton Engines require and if they have a matching Universal adapter plate to suit.
Will let you know if they get back to me.

itsamitsi
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by itsamitsi » July 15th, 2015, 8:47 pm

I had a look on their website but didn't see a M26 x 1.5mm pitch adaptor which is what the filter is. Wait and see what the response is.
Paul W

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 15th, 2015, 10:50 pm

Shann, thank you for contacting the AMSOIL Technical Service Department with your question.
Since the Mitsubishi Triton is not sold in the US market, I do not have a listing for the oil filter. If you could provide me with the factory oil filter number, I can let you know what you would need.

Thanks,
Pete Lueck
Technical Services Representative
AMSOIL INC.
ADDRESS: One AMSOIL Center, Superior, WI 54880
I have replied -
The Mitsubishi Triton 2014 MN Turbo Dies 4 Cyl 2.5L 4D56 [JC] takes a Z313 Oil Filter
.

Still waiting on a further response - but there's a 12 hour time difference so give them another day or 2 hopefully.

itsamitsi
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by itsamitsi » July 16th, 2015, 9:25 pm

If you need the OEM filter number let me know as i have some here.
Paul W

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 16th, 2015, 10:17 pm

If the filters not a Z313 - then yes, I do need the number.. coz the Amsoil bloke hasn't got back to me yet!. :thumb:
Definitely want one of these for the young blokes new Bitsamissing truck.
The only question is if anyone actually makes one.
Half of me wants to gear up and make / sell these damn things.
The broke half of me says - don't be an idiot!. :lol:
Usually when I get these ideas I have a couple Bex powders and a good lie down, until the urge passes - if not, next I slap myself upside the head, until the urge passes.
Can't wait until 3D printers can print in metal... just sell the downloadable 3D cloud files online and people can print their own oil filter cap adapters!
Want a spinner filter as well? No Worries - print a replacement oil filler cap with the banjoe bolt connections already in it - heck even 3D print the manufacturers OEM brand label into it!.
I just get cranky when you want something and no one makes / sells them.
Its called getting old & ornery.

Thinking about it, a picture of the filter with the number on it - would be real handy - I could send him that!.

itsamitsi
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by itsamitsi » July 19th, 2015, 7:52 pm

Here it be Image][/url]
Paul W

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 20th, 2015, 12:37 am

Cheers for that mate - I'll shoot it off to them now!.

Done!

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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 29th, 2015, 1:33 am

Hi Shann
My name is Courtney Maki, and I work in the International Department at AMSOIL. Your email was forwarded to me, and I shared it with our Technical Specialist who said unfortunately that filter does not cross to anything AMSOIL has, and we’re unable to find data on that filter which would dictate the correct adaptor.
Our data is limited to models sold in North America. We suggest contacting a Distributor in Australia who is familiar with the models sold there. Please find a list of authorized Distributors in Australia at the following link http://www.amsoil.com/international/distributor/, and let me know if you have any questions.
Best regards,

Courtney
Courtney Maki
&

Balcatta Performance

3/103 Erindale Road
Balcatta, WA 6021, Australia
08.9240.8020
info@balcattaperformance.com.au
http://www.balcattaperformance.com.au
I guess we try the local distributor - but if the manufacturers don't know - how would a local distributor know any better?

or

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/you-ca ... al-at-home
You Can Now 3D Print with Metal at Home
Extremely costly options exist, but engineers at Michigan Technological University have developed a metal 3D printer that can be built for less than $2000.
or;-

Are we already at a stage where commercial 3D laser sintering metal printing machine could knock out the adapters that many of the current crop of diesel 4wd utes in Oz need in order to couple up to the Amsoil universal bypass oil filters manifold?

It's a question I guess of knowing how to create the required cloud files to match the existing filter mount with a oil pressure proof cap that can simply screw on like a filter and provide the oil feed to the remote manifold and filters.

Also a question of what are people prepared to pay for such a kit given that the universal kit sells for around $250-ish US - plus whatever the adaptors will cost to suit the current crop of Aussie import vehicles?.

Beyond my capabilities!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgQvqVq-SQU

A company like this could knock out say batches of a dozen or so each of the common Aussie import diesel 4wds & then just buy the Amsoil universal filters & exported manifold and connecting hoses.

BUT this could probably be done just as quick easy by a CNC lathe and for probably less cost once the CNC files... are loaded in.

I am no engineer... or machinist...

Shann Low
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Re: PC oil colour - should it be this black?!

Unread post by Shann Low » July 29th, 2015, 1:56 pm

Contacted Balcatta Performance by phone this A.M. & they are "looking into it & will get back to me"!. :rolleyes:

I'm amazed no one from the big 4WD co's gets onto this, and markets something suitable!

What good is a "universal" filter kit from one of the worlds major oil co suppliers, if it doesn't fit the range of major Japanese manufacturers vehicles out there?

Dumbfounded I am.. :boggle:

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