Excessive Diesel engine rattle

Zoom
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Excessive Diesel engine rattle

Unread post by Zoom » February 15th, 2010, 1:13 pm

I am after some opinions on what the problem could be or where I should be looking

I have a 95 4.2TD ute which has a rattle at around 2200rpm onwards. Rattle reduces as you increase engine revs past this point or if under load but does not dissapear.

It is fairly quite on idle which seems to suggest that valve clearances are OK. It has over 300K on the clock, blows no smoke, uses no oil and runs quite well apart from the above. I had it up on my mates hoist and seems to be coming from either the middle or top end.... hard to say. Noise appears to be more on the diesel pump side.. but then again it could be just that their is more crap on that side of the engine for the sound to bounce around on.

I did take it to a diesel specialist when I first started hearing the noise. They had a listen and said it does not sound like a bottom end and said it is nothing to worry about.....

To be honest it annoys the sh#t out of me and I want to fix it..... HELP PLEASE!
2005 GU Patrol 4.2TDi - 43% reduction gears, 2860 Garrett, ARE cooler and scoop, ARB barwork, F&R ARB lockers, winch etc etc

dazzler66
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Unread post by dazzler66 » February 15th, 2010, 2:57 pm

This is how I would approach it;

These are things that anyone who can hold a spanner can do, saving $90 an hour to begin with, before you need a specialist.

Firstly, drop the oil and replace with the correct grade that nissan specify with a new filter. Smell the oil, is there a diesel smell? Some diesels with US injectors can get fuel in the oil which dilutes it. How is the pressure?. Fit a new mechanical gauge if it hasnt got a good one. Remember, a light is only just making pressure so is not a good indicator. Does it make good pressure? Does it rise and fall with engine revs? Could be relief spring or worn oil pump. (not sure if these can be removed easily, someone will know)

Noise gone, grab a beer, otherwise;

Pull the injectors and get a diesel place to test them. Overhaul as necessary. Put em back in. Noise gone, grab a beer. Otherwise;

Off to the diesel place to check pump pressure, timing and replace filters.

Noise gone, grab a beer, otherwise its probably something more serious internally so I would decide whether you are up to doing the dismantling and mantling yourself or finding a reputable place to check the diagnosis do a rebuild.

I am sure a nissan expert will jump on but in the meantime these are basic things to check before worrying too much.

Peter Aawen
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Unread post by Peter Aawen » February 15th, 2010, 4:21 pm

Get hold of a mechanic's stethescope or a long handled screw driver, and with the handle end held up to your ear (or touching the mastoid bone behind your ear) & the blade end placed on different parts of the engine/injector pump etc, see if you can diagnose where the noise is actually coming from.

I'd guess at it being the injector pump, and the fairly normal 'rattle' that they make; besides, if the diesel specialist listened to it and said it wasn't worth worrying about, then it probly isn't worth worrying about! But you could always get a second opinion, try another diesel specialist. I don't know of many people who've had a great deal of success either getting a noise diagnosed or even anyone actually 'properly' diagnosing a noise over the internet.
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

patrol_maverick
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Unread post by patrol_maverick » February 15th, 2010, 4:30 pm

My old TD42 used to rattle at idle. Turned out the belts on the front of the engine were a bit loose and slapping about causing a rattle sound, although they weren't loose enough to squeal. The noise went away once I tightened them up.
Probably best to make sure its not something on the outside of the engine making the noise, like the alternator or water/ AC/ steering pumps. Sometimes noises will travel through brackets and give you the wrong idea of where the noise is actually comming from.

Zoom
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Unread post by Zoom » February 15th, 2010, 6:44 pm

Noise is definitely engine or diesel pump. It is quite up to around 2000rpm, then at around 2200rpm noise comes on, more revs less the clacking/tapping noise however that could be because the individual noises are becoming less distinctive due to higher rpm.

Oil pressure seems to be steady. It did fluctuate quite severely once while 4WDing along some very steep tracks.... to the point the red light came on to say oil pressure to high. It eventually dropped down and all seemed to be fine.

Peter: 100% agree - not going to resolve it over the internet however am putting it out their to see what others may have come across.

The rattle sounds like very loose tappets but it is strange that it does not rattle on idle. The noise is also less once up to operating temperature but is clearly still their.

It is possible it could be lifters/cam?
Can a diesel pump rattle from a certain RPM?
Can injectors rattle like this?
2005 GU Patrol 4.2TDi - 43% reduction gears, 2860 Garrett, ARE cooler and scoop, ARB barwork, F&R ARB lockers, winch etc etc

dazzler66
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Unread post by dazzler66 » February 15th, 2010, 7:47 pm

Zoom wrote: Oil pressure seems to be steady. It did fluctuate quite severely once while 4WDing along some very steep tracks.... to the point the red light came on to say oil pressure to high. It eventually dropped down and all seemed to be fine.
Main or big end maybe. :confused:

Peter Aawen
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Unread post by Peter Aawen » February 15th, 2010, 8:29 pm

If the diesel guys have listened to it and don't think it's main or big ends,it's probly OK that way, but I'd still suggest get a second opinion.

These indirect injection engines DO have rattles, it's a part of the design! They do have some tappet wear issues if they aren't adjusted properly, and they do often have rattly injector pumps, especially as they get older. But without hearing it, it's really hard to say if it's the 'normal' diesel rattle or injector pump rattle or if it's something worse, but then again, most diesel fella's will be able to tell you if anything is rattling wrong before you get out of the car! So I'd strongly suggest that you get that second opinion fairly soon, and regardless of what comes up here.

Good Luck!
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

willie10
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Unread post by willie10 » March 5th, 2010, 9:28 pm

Hello Zoom,
It sounds from the description of your noise that you may have an injector pump timing advance issue. In the bottom of the injector pump is the timing advance piston that works by sensing the supply fuel pressure inside the injector pump & moving against spring pressure to advance the injection timing. By about 2000 rpm the lift pump is making fairly good fuel pressure & MAY be causing the timing to advance to quickly causing the rattle your hearing. This rattle may be due to the injection / ignition / big bang occurring before the piston reaches TDC.

There are 2 main reasons I have found for this:
1. There is a blockage in the fuel return line from the pump back to the fuel tank. (This will cause the fuel pressure to be higher than normal hence the early timing advance)
This can be checked quite easily with a fuel pressure gauge that most mechanics / diesel shops have. It may also pay to follow / check your fuel lines from the pump along the chassis to the tank you may find a kink or damaged section without forking out any cash
2. The advance spring in the injector pump is broken or has weekend causing the early advance. If the supply fuel pressure is within specs then the pump may need to be removed & tested on a pump bench (unless you can find someone with an diesel pulse timing light that clips to the # 1 injector line)

Like I said above this diagnosis is based on your fault description & May be the cause of your rattle. I usually need to see / hear the problems.

Hope you get it fixed. Willie

Zoom
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Unread post by Zoom » March 22nd, 2010, 3:21 pm

Willie10 - When I replaced the main fuel filter, the filter was clean. I did however notice that white screw on section which attached to the bottom of the fuel filter was full of crap (sand?,black rubbish etc). I did clean this out which could suggest that the vehicle has seen it share of crappy fuel prior to me owning it.

Return fuel line blockage - I have heard their is a filter in the pump. It is easy to remove/clean/replace? Was thinking it might be a good starting point.

Checking return fuel line - Can I narrow down the problem by simply disconnecting the return fuel line and letting the fuel run into a container eliminating fuel line to see if it still rattles?
2005 GU Patrol 4.2TDi - 43% reduction gears, 2860 Garrett, ARE cooler and scoop, ARB barwork, F&R ARB lockers, winch etc etc

dmarsc10
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Unread post by dmarsc10 » March 29th, 2010, 7:18 pm

hey zoom, have u sorted this problem yet mate?

Zoom
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Unread post by Zoom » March 29th, 2010, 9:09 pm

Not yet. To be honest is not at the top of my list however do want to get to the bottom.

I did try disconnecting the return line over the weekend to see if their was a blockage by checking if any fuel would come out as per Willie 10's suggestions. No fuel came out however now not sure if this was the right thing as it started chugging, was starved for fuel then stalled. Not sure if this proves anything.

Going to take it to Rankins diesel pump specialist to get his opinion and go from their. I am leaning towards a noisy pump but am not sure..... still drives fine. Once warmed up it's no where near as noisy.

Was also going to check the guaze filter into the pump for curiosity this weekend... see if this gives any clues.
2005 GU Patrol 4.2TDi - 43% reduction gears, 2860 Garrett, ARE cooler and scoop, ARB barwork, F&R ARB lockers, winch etc etc

44bb
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Unread post by 44bb » May 10th, 2010, 3:43 pm

i have this EXACT same problem??? rattles from 2000rpm to 2500rpm dead smooth either side of that!

mines far to hard to tell where its coming from.....ill try again tonight with a brrom handle and get the misso to rev it.

44bb
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Unread post by 44bb » May 28th, 2010, 5:03 pm

has anyone else had this issue and found a fix?

et4wd
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Unread post by et4wd » June 4th, 2010, 1:06 am

Nope mine has a considerably load tap at idle that goes away with RPM's I think it is a injector.
The thing mine is doin is breaking down at 3000rpm, its like hitting a limiter! it wont do it in 1st but will in 2nd and 3rd and when it does it it PUMPS black smoke out the back!
It was doin it a 2000 rpm for a while, i changed the fuel filter and it did it at 1800 rpm i tightened it up a bit and then it was back up 3000.....Man its givin me the irrits!
Dont know the answer to your hassle, gunna have to pt my head under there a bit more often as i know bugger all about diesels!

Steve.
forget the racin and stick to the social, to many people with there hand out!!!!!

highoctane
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Re: Excessive Diesel engine rattle

Unread post by highoctane » January 26th, 2011, 11:56 am

soooo anyone found that rattle yet? My luxy has developed one from 2800-3200 silent each side of them rpms

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