vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

turtl3tim
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vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 17th, 2016, 4:35 pm

hi all, ive just picked up a 92 4runner with the 3vze and 5 speed.

ive read that the factory lsds are useless after 40,000 and the chassis has 10x that amount and the diffs not working even with help from the brake, so i dont want to waste money on rebuilding the factory lsd for roughly $700+ to get 30-40,000ks out of it. my axle code is G285, so its 4.3:1 4pinion lsd.

now...the problem is- being a factory (well, it used to be) "lsd", theres only 1 lunchbox locker option that will physically fit without needing to go and buy an open centre diff, and that is the lokka (toy-rl-759) which can be had through 4wdsystems. after contacting them, they have told me that they cannot be used in a manual 3vze powered 4runner (even though it will physically fit and function) because the efi system picks up a minor difference in engine rpm from 'load' when the wheels lock and unlock, the efi system think something is wrong and momentarily cuts power allowing the diff to unlock, but when efi power kicks back in, the diff relocks, in turn putting more load on the engine causing a very small decrease in engine rpm, and the efi system cuts power again.... and it becomes a vicious cycle for around town driving, they said when offroad it really isnt an issue

so, i would like to hear from people with manual 3vze 4runners/surfs and if they have gone ahead a fitted one of these anyway, and what actually happened, is it tolerable for driving around town? and if not one of these exact lockers, what route did u take and have u had any issues with it? surely any other locker (apart from 100% locks from e/air lockers and spools) would have the same issues as the 'lokka' in regards to the efi system

i considered going the truetrac route but ive read that theyre a bit useless offroad if one wheel looses traction or gets hung up in the air, and i dont particularly want to be riding the handbrake around everywhere.

the car cost me $2000 so i dont ''''really'''' want to spend the same amount on its diff (ruling out elockers and arbs) and this is why i was looking at lunchbox lockers, but being a car that i will drive around town, i dont want to have any of the issues ive been advised of by 4wdsystems, nor do i want a spooled/welded diff for obvious reasons.

if anyone has a part number and feedback on eatons mlocker or suretrac that would be awesome, ive also read about powertrax no-spin, but again, they require an open centre diff to install.

really cannot decided between a good quality lsd like from eaton, or whether to get a cheap lunchbox locker (even if it means having to buy an open centre) but then i think i will still have the same problem that 4wdsystems advised me of.

please help with feedback regarding efi issues fellas, if it really is nothing to worry about then i will probably get a lunchbox locker, if its actually a problem, then i guess i will have to fork out for a proper lsd
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

Peter Aawen
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Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by Peter Aawen » April 17th, 2016, 4:47 pm

Have you considered the 'real' Detroit Locker rather than the (lesser?) TrueTrack from Eaton? The TrueTrack is a (albeit very effective) 'geared LSD' while the Detroit Locker (or if you like, SoftLocker) is the full-on bees knees of Lockers that all the others are really just less effective/capable copies of anyway! Fit a Detroit in the rear & generally the only time you'll know it's there will be when you realise how far it's taken you without any fuss or issue!! ;)
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

turtl3tim
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Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 17th, 2016, 5:03 pm

yes, but will it present the same issues with the efi? thats what im concerned about.
and again for what i paid, i really dont want to drop over $1000 on a diff alone, its not a comp truck, but i want a rear diff that works, so if i can run a lunchbox that will function the same as a detroit, for 1/3rd of the price...thats the path i will take
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

Peter Aawen
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Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by Peter Aawen » April 17th, 2016, 6:18 pm

Nope, the design & operation of the lunchbox lockers is something the Detroits used & went beyond about 40 years ago!! They use cam ramps & engage/disengage operations that are separate, & basically 'feel' & operate the same way a good LSD will on hard stuff, only allowing the 'overdrive disengage' of a ground driven wheel if you turn or change lanes etc, but providing 100% drive to both the rear wheels all the rest of the time & when fitted properly, they'll disengage freely & smoothly whenever one wheel tread travels as little as 50 mm further than the other. So effectively, they just CAN'T do what the 'cheapies' do in the way you are worried about (not that many would really notice that on the cheapies anyway, cos their engage/disengage is pretty clunky & hides all sorts of other stuff!!)

Add to that the fact that the price on Detroits for many of the 'popular' vehicles out there is significantly reduced these days, I'd be surprised if you had to pay even $1000 for a full-on Detroit to suit a Hilux/4Runner if you look around. Yeah, they will cost you more than the real 'cheapies'; but hey, for the extra dough you get a whole new diff centre (minus the C/wheel & pinion + bearings) that is vastly stronger than the OE centre or any of the cheapies & the Detroit will work worlds better & smoother than they do too - most who have them fitted hardly ever realise they are there, except that they do go easily a helluva lot further regardless of how loose the traction is!! And it won't cost anywhere near as much as the vehicle if you do the diff remove & replace yourself, or even if you pay someone to do the pre-load & set-up properly & just do the grunt work yourself.
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

turtl3tim
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Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 17th, 2016, 7:57 pm

bugger ya, uve talked me into a detoit lol. im waiting to hear back on pricing from the company i used to build diffs and gearboxes for, who is an eaton reseller/dealer, but now that i dont work there any more, i dont have access to the special tooling (rolling torque gauges, presses, pullers), but hopefully i will still get mates rates.

all the stuff we worked on there was heavy haulage/mining, so i wouldnt have had any special tooling specifically for the 4runner diff anyways. given that its probably done the same mileage as the car...i dont think a bearing kit would go astray, and that saves worrying about accidentally damaging the old bearings when removing them. ive got all my hand tools so ill do as much as i can...probably find a local mob to set the preloads and get the print right.
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

typhoeus
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Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by typhoeus » April 17th, 2016, 9:02 pm

So does that problem apply to all efi Hiluxes too? Many members have fitted lokkas to hilux/surfs etc., and I haven't read a report of that kind of problem before. . . is it the 3vze engine that is the issue? or the ABS?

turtl3tim
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Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 17th, 2016, 10:04 pm

i wasnt aware the 4runner had abs, but its good to know lol.

it must be something to do with the ecu programming for the 3vze, as it is only the manual 3vze powered 4runner that they do not recommend using them in. the other petrols are carby arent they?

autos are fine apparently, and thats probably because the torque converter would absorb the actual load/rpm difference from the inner wheel gripping up and causing a very slight decrease in rpm, and given that the torque converter isnt a solid coupling, there is a constant changing of rpm in relation/response to load so the computer would be happy for the revs to go up and down by +/- 100-200rpm whilst under acceleration, and not register it as a 'problem'
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

typhoeus
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Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by typhoeus » April 17th, 2016, 10:19 pm

I have a 3RZFE dual cab 1998 model with 5 speed manual and it is efi of course, so I am interested in this topic. I'm not sure if/which models of 4runners or surfs had ABS, I know later model Hiluxes than mine had it, and maybe standard on SR5 models ( someone correct me if I'm wrong) I haven't heard if this issue before, even on other forums.

Peter Aawen
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Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by Peter Aawen » April 18th, 2016, 7:27 am

Hey Tim, I just wonder if what you've heard about the Lokka's behaviour in the rear around town is just an 'excuse' for the fairly agricultural engage/disengage action or maybe even poor fitting?? Cos they will clunk in & out fairly noticeably (to someone who's got any feel for the car/driving, anyway!) on the black stuff, but aren't so noticeable to feel (but are to hear - even deaf old farts can hear them!) once you are in the rough stuff - after all, there's a lot more going on out there, lurches & clunks etc?!? :confused:

Just a thought - it wouldn't be the first time that mob have told people stuff like that just cos they can.... :rolleyes: And the lurches & clunks are well known & reported (even if denied by some! :frog: ) but there really isn't anything else out there to hear/find about what you've been told?? Sooo, I am feeling just a little doubtful about its validity.....
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

turtl3tim
Here and there
Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 18th, 2016, 7:02 pm

im not worried about clunking and rattling from a locker...thats just their nature by design. im worried about the car having issues with cutting the efi power and causing the car to surge/bunny hop when going around corners.

i doubt they would have told me that it is only the manual v6 that has this problem just cos they can...very good way for them to not make any money, for no good reason.
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

turtl3tim
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Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 23rd, 2016, 11:44 am

well after having a conversation with someone on yotatech, ive decided to go ahead and buy the lokka anyway...ill fit it, see what happens, and report back with my findings
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

Peter Aawen
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Posts: 20781
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Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by Peter Aawen » April 23rd, 2016, 12:06 pm

If you get a chance, do a short vid before fitting while driving at fixed revs (throttle lock?) on a 'difficult' section of track; then come back 'after fitting' & vid the vehicle on the same section. If you can get the camera & mic off to one side & down low-ish so it can catch any noises or rev changes, you'll have all the evidence you want either way, ;)
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

turtl3tim
Here and there
Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » April 24th, 2016, 12:27 am

sounds like a good idea, ill do a short on road / off road video of the same track with both the standard diff and the lokka. then ill put them up for comparison
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

turtl3tim
Here and there
Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » June 5th, 2016, 9:38 pm

well i finally got around to getting the diff out and fitting the lokka. so heres some pics
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92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

turtl3tim
Here and there
Posts: 59
Joined: February 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
Location: Bunbury, WA

Re: vzn130 rear diff upgrade issues

Unread post by turtl3tim » June 20th, 2016, 7:34 pm

we must be due for an update on this topic!!!. so i finally got to take my car for its maiden voyage since completing all of my upgrades and general maintenance today.

good news. the lokka works a treat. i put 85-140 penrite oil in it and it is extremely quiet. with the radio off and my window down, it was barely audible in the parking lot. a few little clicks that let u know its unlocking as it should under no load. but i really had to listen carefully to pick up on it. it locks as it should aswell, AWESOME!

now...back to the topic of whether the 3vze does infact have an issue with the efi...
it makes me sad to say yes...it does :irked: . but its bareable, it will just require me to change my driving style, rolling through corners instead of powering through them. it does exactly what the retailer advised me it would do. it kind of jumps and surges on sealed surfaces. no biggy though :thumb:
92' 4runner, 3.0Loser manual. Custom DIYPVC snorkel. ISR mod. Hurricane headers with 2.5" exhaust, stainless 200cpsi cat and turbo muffler. TJM bullbar with hella spotties, LED indicators. 2" body lift. 15x10's 0 offset chromies, 31x10.5 a/t's. FlameThrower injectors, 7mge vafm upgrade with modified cressida airbox for snorkel, 7mge coil upgrade. Plugs gapped to 7mge specs (1.1mm). Eagle 7mm spark leads. Aftermarket a-pillar oil pressure and water temp gauges, rear Aussie Lokka

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