4WDers and the National Code for Mods - Latest info

Anything and everything in the world of 4WDing & Fourby's; if it's 4WD related & not covered by a specific section elsewhere, then put it in here!
cac
Need to get out more
Posts: 7008
Joined: August 29th, 2007, 9:38 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by cac » September 13th, 2011, 9:52 pm

VSI50 seems to be somewhat based on the NCOP, taking the 50mm max tyre increase and 50mm unengineered suspension lift....it does give one concession that the NCOP doesn't though....it allows for a total of 75mm lift unengineered....
LN106 Hilux Project

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=82487

whizzo
Need to get out more
Posts: 4852
Joined: November 22nd, 2009, 10:43 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by whizzo » September 13th, 2011, 10:10 pm

Seems to me that 75mm total unengineered lift and 50mm tyre increase is a far more practical and reasonable figure.
There are lots of people arround who thaught this was more or less a done deal.

There is so much fiddling and faddling and different documents being thrown about.

We need one reasonable document and not to have every state fiddling with it.

We need to keep pushing to get back to the matter of a consistent national modification plocy.



Back to the old vehicles and back to my original point on that matter.....old vehicles that were engineered prior to the changes in legeslation are simply not significant, because mostly they wont be arround very long.
Not that there wont be examples surviving or that they wont be desirable.

Cheers

Bludge
Here and there
Posts: 54
Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 14th, 2011, 11:56 am

02-SR5 wrote:why should Mr Jo Public become a paying member if a club if he doesnt want too. Does that make him irresponsible, hell no.
I have never been a fan of clubs, now the NSW association want their hand out, to get cash to justify their existance. Sounds like some under table dealings to me. If we vote on this, what do we get, oh, I know, we can make it legislation, that every person that wants to drive a modified veh, then they have to pay to become a member of your association. The clubs get the money, the pollies get the votes.

So much for a free country.

Rob
4WD NSW & ACT is a not for profit organisation.

Quote from the Associations front page...
Why join a 4WD Club?

Our needs as road, track and trail users are rarely considered by those who draft legislation, change regulations or implement road safety campaigns. If we don't work at maintaining and improving legislation, regulations and campaigns, you will find that united we drive, divided we walk or drive 2WD vehicles.
Rob, from earlier in this thread,
Bludge wrote:Don't be drawn into combining the certification of a person and the effects of VSI50 on your vehicle. So being a association member is no silver bullet...

If you are a member of a Affiliated 4WD Club but have no certification, you will restricted, just like everyone else.

If you are an affiliated club member, have certification, through the associations RTO or from a commercial provider, it appears that you may get some leniency.
As an individual or non affiliated club you can apply for exemption if you can demonstrate a requirement provided you have completed a certified course.
Let me make this as clear as possible...

FACT:
VSI50 will affect 80% of the Club members just the same as everyone else in NSW. (The ACT has VSB14 which is more restrictive than VSI50)
That means about 20% of Club members able to utilise the additional lift if they wish to use it and the RTA pass it.

There is no special deal for all Association members.
The RTA have recognised that some 4WDer's (Association members and non association members) have taken time to obtain additional driving certification and has made allowances for that.

This certification is a National competency and is not owned or controlled by the 4WD Associations, it is a (old) VETAB now ASQA qualification, it is available from many commercial training organisations.

ANYONE can apply for exemption, provided that they meet the criteria set down by the RTA.

This includes mining vehicles, resource industry, Forestry etc as well as individuals such as Builders, Farmers and non-club members etc.
Bludge wrote:Why do accredited Association members appear to get a better deal?
Being a member of an organisation with a published code of conduct that can be enforced upon the Clubs, as well as being an RTO with training to a recognised National competency, this competency will assist those who wish to have more modified vehicles.
Just like the Australian Street Rod Federation http://www.asrf.org.au/ have codes of conduct and rules.

4WD NSW & ACT works with the 4WD Australia (The National 4WD Council) and the other state and territory associations and keeps them informs of what is going on.

So we can keep harping on about the 4WD Association or get down to the nitty gritty of what is better VSB14, VSI50 or no change, then take the fight to the right people.... the RTA.

christofurry
Part of the furniture
Posts: 1126
Joined: October 17th, 2005, 9:34 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by christofurry » September 14th, 2011, 12:09 pm

So where do I vote/send a letter to try and stop this?
Chris, now driving a 2013 Altitude

Bludge
Here and there
Posts: 54
Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 14th, 2011, 2:43 pm

Duncan Gay is the Minister for roads, email office@gay.minister.nsw.gov.au

Andrew Stoner is the man that told 4WD Action that he would stop it. email office@deputypremier.nsw.gov.au

That is for VSI50

For VSB14
It's the Hon Anthony Albanese MP email A.Albanese.MP@aph.gov.au

I am not sure if 4WD Actions supports VSB14 and not VSI50, or does not support either.
Remember that VSI50 is based on VSB14.

VSI50 have better lift and tyre conditions than VSB14

christofurry
Part of the furniture
Posts: 1126
Joined: October 17th, 2005, 9:34 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by christofurry » September 14th, 2011, 4:31 pm

Guess who Im going to see about becoming a JP...Mr Stoner. Might just remind him of this.
Chris, now driving a 2013 Altitude

Shaun W
Posts: 164
Joined: March 11th, 2009, 11:09 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Shaun W » September 14th, 2011, 5:52 pm

Just a quick update.

I have been in touch with Andrew Stoner's office and Duncan Gay's office. I will hopefully have a response tomorrow, which i will share with everyone.

Shaun

Agent 13
Need to get out more
Posts: 3060
Joined: May 4th, 2007, 10:57 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Agent 13 » September 14th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Shaun W wrote:Just a quick update.

I have been in touch with Andrew Stoner's office and Duncan Gay's office. I will hopefully have a response tomorrow, which i will share with everyone.

Shaun
Shaun... I'm really wondering what your take on this versus the National Code Of Practice is? And theirs??
'06 GU4 4.2 Diesel, nicely tweaked and set up for the touring!

Winger
Avid Poster
Posts: 616
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 3:04 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Winger » September 15th, 2011, 1:09 am

I decided to go back to an old thread to refresh my memory and found these documents.

Thanks to your efforts, we have made the Keneally Labor Government scrap its plans to introduce harsh vehicle modification laws (VSI-50).

This is a win for all 4WDers and car enthusiasts.

I will keep you updated on any further ill-conceived Labor plans, but please contact me with any other NSW roads issues.

Thank you and please remember to drive safely as we approach the festive season.

Kind Regards


Andrew Stoner MP
Leader of The Nationals
Shadow Minister for Roads

And
Press Release
Four Wheel Drive NSW & ACT Inc support 4WD modification controls
Recently a great deal of comment and misinformation has been circulating about the proposed regulations in NSW under the VSI50 draft. This has resulted in unnecessary hysteria and alarmist headlines.
Over the last 18 months Four Wheel Drive NSW&ACT Inc has been an active member of the Minister's Working Group to assist in formulating a revised regulation, together with the AAAA (Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association) representatives, to secure a workable resolution to the initial prematurely released document which differed to the current NCOP.
The proposed National Code of Practice (NCOP) under VSB14 currently requires that minor vehicle suspension modifications up to 50mm (2”) can be carried out provided that they meet the various Australian Design Rules & regulations and meets the safety requirements required. 4WD NSW & ACT supports the self managed modification up to a lift of 50mm in a loaded vehicle.
The proposed NCOP also requires that suspension modifications above the 50mm (2”) up to 150mm (6”) be allowed providing that again the relevant design rules and safety standards are maintained and are approved by a certified Engineering Signatory. This is currently the case in NSW and has been for years.
4WD NSW&ACT believe any attempt to limit all vehicles above the 50mm height is unjustified on the evidence available today. The current requirement for engineering certification is sufficient until proven otherwise by relevant data.
Four Wheel Drive NSW & ACT supports the initiative suggested by the NSW RTA, to collect real data by requiring that all type MC vehicles that have suspension modifications lifting the vehicle from its original manufactured height, be notified on the vehicle registration. This support is conditional on relevant detailed data being gathered in a consistently transparent and statistically valid manner from vehicle accident reports collected by the various accident investigation authorities.
4WD NSW&ACT recommends that this data creation initiative be implemented as soon as possible, to create a database capable of demonstrating the safety or otherwise of all vehicles and that it be reviewed by the Minister's Working Group, after a 2 year period to establish the facts before any further regulatory proposals are made.
Peter Fenwick, President
Four Wheel Drive NSW&ACT Inc
Contact: 1800 646 630
November 2010



Also the OP in that thread from Shaun stated that the VSI-50 was deferred to a National Body.

Now some of the members here have stated that back when this all happened they tried saying that the VSI-50 was not dead and that the Association was still in negotiations with the RTA .

I have read the whole thread and I can’t find anywhere any indication of this so if any of these members or anyone else could point me in the right direction that would be great. Reading the press release from Peter the only indication in there is the recommendations at the end that were suggested by the RTA and followed up in 2 years.

What I am trying to figure out is the VSI-50 was deferred to a national level the 4WD association indicated that if negotiations were to resume it would be in two years after the appropriate data was compiled so why is the association back in negotiations with the RTA? I can only think 3 reasons.
1. The national body bounced it back to the RTA to deal with and they returned to the association.
2. The association had agreed with the RTA again behind closed doors that they would say it had been deferred to get everyone off there back then meet again at a later date to continue discussions.
3. After the scrapping the association approached the RTA to resume talks


What I can’t understand is why the association didn’t approach other organizations and groups to band together to figure out a plan of attack and use there 2 years wisely instead they have wasted what 10 months and now its going to flare up again and this time we might not win but after they supposedly closed all discussions at the end of last year the association did not have to disclose exactly what was said at the meetings and they would not be breaching their confidentiality agreement by letting these groups know that these are the proposed changes and this is their reason for wanting to implement the changes.


This has got nothing to do with trying to bring things into line on a national level so you can travel between states and still be legal because as some states have indicated they are not prepared to change if the VSB-14 is not implemented in it entirety and not partially so you will still be illegal in some states.

It also has nothing to do with safety and I say this for a few reasons firstly because this has been an argument that has been going on for years now so if there was a safety issue don’t you think the RTA would have the figures to back their claims but I have yet to see documentation showing an alarming rate of 4WDs involved in accidents and injuries caused and weather any modifications were the cause of the accidents or injuries in the first place and if so were those mods engineered or not.

If it’s about the hight of bullbars don’t you think not only would they have the evidence as mentioned above but also have had regulations put on the hight of the side of the trailers and trays on trucks by now everyone knows the safety side of the transport industry has been put through some hell over the years.

How can you say its about safety when in one hand you are saying that a certain 4WD in not safe but in the other hand that exact same 4WD is safe if you have completed a driver training course (that doesn’t teach you how to drive a modified 4WD on the road) and you have satisfied the wallet I mean criteria of the RTA.

I’m not against driver training courses I believe everyone should do one to learn the dangers and safety procedures involved in recoveries as well as how to conduct yourself when out wheeling.

I’m not trying to bash the association here and for the record I have had no dealings with the association before good or bad so I have got no reason to have problem with them but I think they have gone about this the wrong way. The way I see it they need more members not less so why are they closing the door and pushing away their potential members don’t you think that more people would feel that they should join a club because the association approached different groups informed them of the potential changes and setup reps from each of these groups to increase their numbers in the fight to have this stopped.

Sure the association does try and do the best for its members but in order for it to do more it needs the funding so it has do what is best for itself first if these regulations are passed and even though you don’t have to be a member of a club you will still have to justify the reason for you to be driving a modified 4WD and for some reason I don’t think the RTA will accept the answer because I enjoy driving in the bush so it will be a lot less of a hassle if you state you are also a member of a 4WD club so there is a good chance that their numbers will increase and being a non profit organisation this extra funding will enable them to fight for better benefits for their members but there is still no guarantee that they will be successful.

There is no dout that the members will see benefits of their club increasing in size but at what cost? Not just for engineering but RTA fees then most likely higher rego after being put into another category of vehicle and what about the inconvenience when you are always being pulled over by the police to check everything’s in order.

As I said before this has been a battle that has been going on for a long time and the reason for this is because there is a lot of valid arguments against any regulation changes but this is the biggest hurdle these government departments have to get through and once it is signed off it will be a lot easier for these same departments to implement further changes in the future.

Once you get the media involved it puts more pressure on these Government Departments to do things the right way and not only that but I have spoken to people who have no interest in 4WDs and some I have even had discussions with in the past about 4WDs and even they said if there was a drafted document for them to put their name to they would send it away all because they are sick and tired of seeing regulation changes being made every time they turn around so I think you will find there is a lot of community support as well.

Sorry for raving on but every one is asleep and I am having a lot of trouble getting to sleep so I started typing and just got carried away.

I am hoping the response from Andrew Stoner is a positive one and he sticks to his word.

There is only one word I can think of to describe this crap and its discrimination.

whizzo
Need to get out more
Posts: 4852
Joined: November 22nd, 2009, 10:43 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by whizzo » September 15th, 2011, 8:41 am

Sorry folks, this is typical australian labour parties own typical version of yes minister type CONsultation....don't worry the libs and the greens will have their version too.

it is following exactly the same format that we saw in the recent QLD fisheries snapper debate, and similar other debarkles.

1. The government proposes some sort of unpopular proposal, not bassed on facts or consultation with anybody much, but upon its own condecentive agenda.

2. The public and special interest groups complain.

3. the government comes back with a stricter and even more unpopular proposals.

4. the public and special interest groups complain.

5. the government comes back with some sort of statistical gathering process that will impose some sort of discomfort on those complaining.

and it goes on, the government continuing to push harder and make even more restrictive, discriminatory and unpopular proposals.

There will be:
individual licencing or regestration, marking you by branding your vehicle, licence, regestration or some such,... requirements for specialised training where none is appropriate or needed, some sort of intrusive information gathering and all manner of other measures to make it difficult for those complaining.
OH and don't forget the surveys ( consultation documents) with loaded questions designed to create an outcome.

They will use every trick in the book, distractions, red herrings, divide and conquer, misinformation, delaying tactics or even booring you into disinterest.

They will if they can, toss the issue from one durisdiction to another, "Oh no that is a federal matter", "Oh that is state durisdiction", "we are just following ......"

REMEMBER ONE THING, thru all this the government agenda remains the same and the goverment view continues to be condecentive...polocy is polocy.

Make no mistake if there is any statistical gathering, it will be justified by saying that they have insufficient data or some such BS.....and the outcome will be the same. What ever statistics are gathered will be twisted to support the government agenda.

Serioulsy chaps, if this is to come down in our favour we need not to be tricked into petty squables, we need to recognise the threat and address that.

Thru all this we have to present a reasonable argument, or we allow them to dismiss us as extreemists.

Face the fact that there does need to be stricter regulation in some states (and it will come regardless) in particular NSW, But the polocy needs to be reasonable.

Rediculously strict restriction is just as unreasonable as some things that have been permitted up to this point in some states.

Think about it chaps, and start writting to your politicians and the papers.

OH...remember, the politicians and public servants are well aware of social media and they read bulliten boards....

cheers

Bludge
Here and there
Posts: 54
Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 15th, 2011, 9:43 am

Winger wrote:What I am trying to figure out is the VSI-50 was deferred to a national level the 4WD association indicated that if negotiations were to resume it would be in two years after the appropriate data was compiled so why is the association back in negotiations with the RTA? I can only think 3 reasons.
1. The national body bounced it back to the RTA to deal with and they returned to the association.
2. The association had agreed with the RTA again behind closed doors that they would say it had been deferred to get everyone off there back then meet again at a later date to continue discussions.
3. After the scrapping the association approached the RTA to resume talks.
Winger,

Once again you seem to think that the Association is a bunch of mystical bureaucrats, hiding behind closed door making up nasty plans to scuttle all 4WDers'

They are not, they are part time volunteer representatives from the 90 plus 4WD Clubs around NSW and the ACT.

1. It was the RTA who took VSI50 to the National body and away from the table.
2. The Association knew nothing of it's comeback until the RTA informed the registered interested parties, which include's AAAA (the aftermarket manufactures) and 4WD NSW & ACT.
3. Why on earth would you think that the Association would approach the RTA and re-instigate this? What do you think the members of the Association would gain from this when it affects 80% of them?

I think that you credit the Association with more clout than it has, with some ulterior motive to change the world, what next invade Poland?

Take just a couple of minute to understand that 4WD NSW & ACT is an entity of like minded people who choose to form clubs in the pursuit of their hobby, past time and leisure activity.

Have just a very quick read of what it is there for on the front page of it web site http://4wdnow.com

and for those who can't be bothered to look it up
Who are we ?

Four Wheel Drive NSW & ACT (the Association) is the peak user body for four wheel drive enthusiasts in both NSW and the ACT. It represents 94 clubs ( link here to club page ) with approximately 4,500 members and their families.

Objectives of the Association

1. To promote goodwill and fellowship between member clubs.
2. To ensure the correct representation of recreational use of Four Wheel Drive Vehicles.
3. To promote conservation of the natural environment.
4. To promote road safety.
5. To co-operate wherever possible with other organisations having similar interests to the Association.
6. To represent and safeguard the interests of member clubs and, where necessary, to liaise on their behalf with controlling authorities.
7. To act as a unifying body, information repository and clearing house for and on behalf of member clubs.
8. To assist with community services where necessary.
9. To assist any member club in any matter considered appropriate by the Association.
10. To do all such things that are lawful and conducive to the objects of the Association.

What do we do for you?

We lobby locally, nationally and internationally for 4WDers' rights. We promote 4WDing and the interests of 4WDers. Association membership provides the following benefits to member clubs and their members:
1. value for money specialized Insurance at club an individual levels
2. Representation at local, state, national and international levels
3. Recognition as a member of the peak user group representing your views at all levels
4. Member Training (MTEC and DTU) to nationally accredited standards
5. Membership Rewards through the national discount card
6. Website and Forum for information, updates and discussion

Why join a 4WD club?

Our needs as road, track and trail users are rarely considered by those who draft legislation, change regulations or implement road safety campaigns. If we don't work at maintaining and improving legislation, regulations and campaigns, you will find that united we drive, divided we walk or drive 2WD vehicles.

Recreational Four Wheel Driving Benefits Tourist Destinations and Local Communities.
The benefits of 4WD touring is massive in terms of both financial and environmental rewards. For example:
• Regional tourism and businesses benefit significantly from recreational 4WD Touring.
• The environmental impacts on our precious State Forests and National Parks would be significantly reduced with designated and dedicated one-way tracks designed for vehicles of all abilities, thus offering drivers and riders a legal alternative unsuitable trails.
• It is clear that enforcement has, and will continue to fail, so it is incumbent upon the NSW state government to act in a positive and pro-active manner in this regard.
• 4WD NSW & ACT believes education, consultation and co-operation are the keys to a sustainable and economically beneficial recreational use of lands to support the growing tourism market.
• The Victorian approach of encouraging responsible and economically sustainable use of state lands by 4WDers is an example to all states that has demonstrated economic benefits to local communities and the improved viability of access and maintenance of management and fire trails across the state. As a result of this enlightened approach the tourism dollar has flowed to their towns embracing recreational 4WDers. With regional economies struggling in NSW, 4WDers would flock to areas that offered good 4WDing, accompanied by good facilities and a welcoming attitude. It’s not rocket science. We encourage the NSW government to boost its economy by supporting responsible 4WDing.

whizzo
Need to get out more
Posts: 4852
Joined: November 22nd, 2009, 10:43 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by whizzo » September 15th, 2011, 10:15 am

One thing we do need to understand is that the Association, regardless of how well intentioned they are, are part time amateurs.

This is why the full time spin doctors from the government want to deal with them, They think they can push them arround, confues them and burry them in BS and if it all does not go the way we want it, they hope, we will blame the people from the association.

Remember folks..divide and concour.......don't play their game.

cheers

TuffTD42
Here and there
Posts: 32
Joined: June 20th, 2011, 4:43 pm
Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 15th, 2011, 5:13 pm

Shaun W wrote:Just a quick update.

I have been in touch with Andrew Stoner's office and Duncan Gay's office. I will hopefully have a response tomorrow, which i will share with everyone.

Shaun
Cheers Shawn.

I think all the 4wd community need to band together regardless of what you do/don't like 2" lift & 32's or 6" lift & 35's.

If your all for this banning of big lifts n tyre's etc & Have'nt any thing positive to say, then i think it's time you move on.

Here's a forum you could join. http://forums.treehugger.com/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wodger the bodger
Here and there
Posts: 84
Joined: September 26th, 2010, 8:16 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by wodger the bodger » September 15th, 2011, 8:08 pm

What with the Toyota and Nissan 4wd clubs not members of the 4wd Association, and the various LandRovers clubs being a bit ambivelant about VSI 50 restrictions, I don't see too much support for those of us that want to fight this legislation.I hope I'm wrong but IMO based on the handful of association board members I know about, they seem only concerned with representing the interests of the touring/camping sector, not the modified/hardcore sector.

et4runner
Been here a while
Posts: 125
Joined: April 11th, 2003, 9:21 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by et4runner » September 15th, 2011, 10:24 pm

wodger the bodger wrote:What with the Toyota and Nissan 4wd clubs not members of the 4wd Association, and the various LandRovers clubs being a bit ambivelant about VSI 50 restrictions, I don't see too much support for those of us that want to fight this legislation.I hope I'm wrong but IMO based on the handful of association board members I know about, they seem only concerned with representing the interests of the touring/camping sector, not the modified/hardcore sector.
Simply not correct.

A number of volunteer members who have been on the sub committee through this process are (a) qualified engineers and avid modifiers and (b) active in the competition scene. They have continued to argue the case for a fairer outcome for all.

One in fact was banned from this forum because he spoke perhaps too logically for the liking of some around here....

Return to “Anything to do with 4WD's &/or related to Fourby's”