4WDers and the National Code for Mods - Latest info

Anything and everything in the world of 4WDing & Fourby's; if it's 4WD related & not covered by a specific section elsewhere, then put it in here!
cac
Need to get out more
Posts: 7008
Joined: August 29th, 2007, 9:38 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by cac » September 10th, 2011, 12:12 pm

yobbo....I tend to agree with your train of thought on this.....and believe that a 285/75R16 is a sensible tyre upgrade for a Wrangler....particularly if you have added a bit of extra weight with all the usual accessories....

However, I'd be quite interested to hear Wilesy's opinion on this as well....

I also think its interesting that we are allowed a virtually unlimited increase in width (OK so it 50%) but that means that theoretically I can fit a 355/35R17 to my Grand Vitara, but I can't fit a 245/70R16 (factory tyre size is 235/60R16), which is 61mm taller....which is going to have the greater affect on driveability and longevity of the steering/suspension components....not to mention which is going to be the more difficult to get to fit properly....and does anyone even make a 355/35R17 or similar??? Also, anyone for a 395/35R20 on a GXL 70 series (factory tyre size is 265/70R16)?? That's also legal under VSB14, yet a 285/75R16 isn't...56mm increase in diameter.....both low profile tyres that are 50% wider are within 10mm of the factory tyre height too....

the figures I am using are based on tyre size calculators I found on the net, not actual sizing....I'm just proving the stupidity of it all.....

On a side note Wilesy, I've noticed that the tractors I drive at work and a number of popular 4WDs are fitted with 70 series tyres....is there something in this profile that makes the tyre a particularly good choice for off road work, or is it just higher profile tyres in general that work well off road??
LN106 Hilux Project

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=82487

stockhorse
Need to get out more
Posts: 2326
Joined: August 22nd, 2008, 12:03 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by stockhorse » September 10th, 2011, 12:24 pm

As I have said and repeated.. ANYONE can apply for an exception, individual or non affiliated club. This thread is making out that only Association Club members can do this. Thats the divide.

Totally missed the point. NO ONE should need to apply. There should be no condition of being able to drive the vehicle, IT complies or IT doesn't.

Bludge
Here and there
Posts: 54
Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 10th, 2011, 12:34 pm

Paul100 wrote:Ok, I've had enough of the lies & missinformation by those who don't know or didn't attend the last meeting!!!
I don't care who knows who or who give's a rats bum ok! VSI 50/VSB 14 [or whatever numbers they are offhand] -

Is there any reason why 4WD Action didn't attend the meeting on September 3rd when they were invited to do so by the 4WDNSW-ACT & RTA & others.................... what was the reason why then? & since they didn't attend - why do they request information from 4WDNSW-ACT now if it wasn't important before? An explanation is now required, thanks.

Ohh well, I don't care if I get band from this site as others have before on this topic - when it was the original do Australia on 2inch lift & 33's article that stirred up the hornets nest in the first place to cause these issues! - as known before by those in the 4WD industry know! Please stick together on these 4WD issues's, thanks! I've said [unoffically] enough!

[.....yes - Freedom of speach, according to a PM [Private Message] I got so far!]
Paul,

I also think that people need to remember that the Association is not just a couple of people but the members of 95 or so Clubs based all around NSW and the ACT. (Many members readers and contributor of this magazine and on this forum).

It the Assocition that said VSI50 was not dead and kept questioning and meeting Ducn Gay. It was the Association who pushed the meeting (short notice as it was) in an attempt to breakdown the secrecy and rumours.

Please understand that it is the Clubs that vote on these things, it was the Club representatives who attended this meeting referred to and they questioned the RTA directly.

The association is there to do the best for its members, like all lobby groups or even a union.
The majority of the Association members will be affected just the same as non-members. It may not provide recovery kits or spanners and tee shirts for its subscriptions, it does provide other things.

Why do accredited Association members get a better deal?
Being a member of an organisation with a published code of conduct that can be enforced upon the Clubs, as well as being an RTO with training to a recognised National competency, this competency will assist those who wish to have more modified vehicles.

This was recognised by the RTA and the concessions were given and not a condition of acceptance.

The same thing applies to land access to certain areas, (particularly in Victoria) where non-association members are not permitted.

Does this help the Association Clubs with new memberships etc, of course it will, just like 4WD Action want to increase its market share, the more affiliated clubs and members the more clout the Association has with government and its agencies.

As I have said elsewhere.. anybody, individual or groups, can ask for exceptions provided that they can meet the criteria and requirements.

Like Hyzook, I have privileged information, but I still emailed Duncan Gay and Andrew Stoner as an individual. Have you?

Bludge
Here and there
Posts: 54
Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 10th, 2011, 1:13 pm

stockhorse wrote:As I have said and repeated.. ANYONE can apply for an exception, individual or non affiliated club. This thread is making out that only Association Club members can do this. Thats the divide.

Totally missed the point. NO ONE should need to apply. There should be no condition of being able to drive the vehicle, IT complies or IT doesn't.
Stockhorse

I haven't missed the point, either VSB14 or VSI50 is coming in... in some form or another. Whether they can police it or not is a different subject.

Just like speed limits, school zones, red light cameras, the governing body is basing this on road safety rightly or wrongly, so unfortunately its going to happen.

As for "NO ONE should need to apply. There should be no condition of being able to drive the vehicle, IT complies or IT doesn't".

This is a fact of life, it happens every day right now, with conditional plates on many vehicles, Licensed drivers with illnesses have conditions (wear glasses, diabettic, Automatic vehicle only).

The option that the RTA demonstrated in July 2009 was IT DOES NOT COMPLY.... very simply no more modifications....

This upset and affected most 4WDer's, so conditions were suggested to be put in place.


Conditions?
You can drive a 1960 car with no seatbelts, you cannot drive a 2011 without seat belts.
Every new vehicle is required to have VSC (vehicle stability control) Victoria banned the Chinese Cherry being sold there.

You need a licence to drive a Taxi or hire car why? it carries the same amount of people, has no discernible differences, or more importantly no modified, raised suspension or handling changing characteristics to the other Holden's or Falcons on the road.

Tell me what the difference is between a 3 tonne truck (Car Licence) and a 3.5 tonne truck (HV licence)? Isn't that a condition.
All these on unmodified vehicles.

Convert a people mover into a wheelchair vehicle and it needs an engineering certificate, and I know for a fact that is not recognised in every state.

Remember all the AAAA and 4WD Action test were carried out on 2" lift and 33" tyres, the proposed VSB14 and VSI50 changes,
see The 4WD Actions excellent article on 2" lift and 33s

So conditions are a factor in motoring in every aspect of daily life.
Oh yes the Engineering Certification is also a condition or registration and use on the road....

Remember if your vehicle is currently Certified it is ok to keep using, even without a 4WD driving certification....

Winger
Avid Poster
Posts: 616
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 3:04 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Winger » September 10th, 2011, 1:37 pm

So what makes the association so high and mighty that they get to vote and decide on something that is going to affect the rest of the 4WD community.

Bludge
Here and there
Posts: 54
Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 10th, 2011, 1:53 pm

Winger wrote:So what makes the association so high and mighty that they get to vote and decide on something that is going to affect the rest of the 4WD community.
I don't know where you get this sort of idea from.

They didn't, haven't and cannot vote on the rest of the 4WD community.

The vote...
The association is the 95 or so clubs, their members and families. They are perfectly able to listen and decide (vote) on what they want their representatives to pursue. Just like a union or any other organised body.

They asked the RTA to meet and take questions from the members.

The RTA will do what the RTA will do, so if VSI50 comes in, and as I have said all the way through this it will affect them just the same way as it will affect you.

The difference is that they have been able to speak with the Ministers representative from the RTA and heard for themselves.

What has been said by the RTA is that exemptions may be allowed.. Not just for 4WD NSW & ACT but for anyone who complies with their criteria.

The RTA indicated that the 4WD Association has controls, an education program and structure in place that will, allow them to assist their member to get this exemption.

Please read the message 3 up from here.

Wilesy
Moderator
Posts: 3191
Joined: April 11th, 2003, 11:49 pm
Location: Kenthurst, NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Wilesy » September 11th, 2011, 7:36 am

cac wrote: On a side note Wilesy, I've noticed that the tractors I drive at work and a number of popular 4WDs are fitted with 70 series tyres....is there something in this profile that makes the tyre a particularly good choice for off road work, or is it just higher profile tyres in general that work well off road??
Not really, a 70 series tyre does seem to be an ideal compromise to fit as you need to have a balance between performance and handling.

The bigger the profile, the taller the tyre which basically means that riding on an 85 series tyre would be very comfortable compared to a 60 series tyre, though with the increased height profile comes flex, although it means comfort, it also equates to instability especially around corners compared to a 60 series tyres for arguments sake where the lower profile sidewall would give you better handling particularly when cornering.

Fitting the right tyre on a work or construction vehicle is very important as you don’t have the “Good” suspension to soak up the bumps so to speak as the tyre will do a lot of that work for you. It’s cheaper for the manufacturer to do that than fit better suspension….

For an example, You would be silly to fit a 60 series tyre for serious off roading for a number of reasons, firstly, you limit the ability to air down and rely on the sidewalls to walk over obstacles where by you then reduce the tread or footprint size on the ground, very necessary for traction especially on sand or muddy surfaces.

The profile of a tyre is also calculated on the tread width, so if you have a 285 tyre, a 70 profile means 70% of the tread width, so in other words the profile determines the overall tyre diameter, so if you compare a 265mm tyre and a 285mm tyre both being a 70 profile, you get different overall diameters which also alters the speedo readings.

Something needed to determine when fitting so that you’re steering and suspension and brake linings are all and brake capacity are all adequate.

If you fit just a 20mm increased tyre size, it reduces the vehicles ability to stop as efficiently as a standard tyre as it has a greater force of vehicle to handle, something which has to be taken into account when also determining the towing capacity as this also will alter the vehicle to handle safely a particular towing weight.

Vehicle manufacturers always give a safe tolerance to towing capacity, calculated on tyre size, vehicle weight, brake calliper design and shoe size, (Disc or drum) etc, etc.

It’s not always as simple as fitting a larger tyre and say “She’ll be right mate”

A lot of thought and safety calculations and exhaustive testing has gone into calculating these figures, which is why it is important to have an engineer calculate when changing a vehicle from standard to customised that it will be safe under all circumstances for other road users, as well as when towing, something many of us seem to forget.

Sorry to give a big winded answer, but some people just don’t understand the implications when changing things on a standard vehicle.

I admit that in many cases, changing a vehicles suspension, tyres etc can be a huge benefit to making the vehicle safer than when it was standard, as manufacturers to keep things down to a price to appease the masses, but never underestimate the brakes of a vehicle could be seriously effected by changing these particular components, yes, some things may perform better, but also some may not…,
Kind Regards,
Pete.

whizzo
Need to get out more
Posts: 4852
Joined: November 22nd, 2009, 10:43 am

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by whizzo » September 11th, 2011, 11:21 am

One thing that we must all understand is that this is all suposed to be about a national and agreed standard for vehicle modifications, so we don't have the BS situation where a vehicle cant be driven or reregistered in another state with out compliance issues.

And there are those on both sides of the argument that seem to be forgetting this.

We have a nationally agreed and consistent driver licencing system, that encorpirates a system of clasifying vehicles for the purpose of driver licencing.
With this system, they have systematicly removed many of the vehicle distinctions, it now comes down to GVM, the number of wheels and the number of sections to the vehicle.

The above is designed to be cosistent with some international guidlines.

There is no longer a buss licence, no tractor licence and no forklift licence......if you want to drive any of those on the road you require a licence of the appropriate GVM clasification.

If you want to operate a forklift or a crane or such you need an operators ticket for that, that is a seperate issue to being licenced to drive on the road.

If you want to drive certain vehicles for hire, like busses, or taxis, you need a "Drivers Authorisation" this has nothing to do with driving ability, it is about personal fitness to conduct the ocupation, in particular, criminal history, medical fitness and driving history in that order.

You can drive a 9 tonne vehicle combination ( a 4.5 tonne vehicle with a 4.5 tonne trailer) on a plain simple pasenger car licence.

So any sort of special licencing for a 4WD is not in line with national and international polocy and is unreasonable, and will never get up nationally.

As for why a particular vehicle is legal one day and illegal another.....firstly it would never have been legal in some other states.......and secondly the whole concept of legal one day and illegal the next is far from uncommon with regulation change....in almost every major regulatory change many situations like this occur........many will argue, right or wrong ( and this is at the centre of the debate) that it should never have been legal and it was never safe.

As for why the government only wants to speak with the 4wd association.......remember this is government CONsultation......they do not want a contribution from smaller groups or the wider community, they want one "peak body" from each of the "identified stakholders".....

the CONsultation is a legeslative requirement, but the government will do all they can to make the process easy for themselves so they can push their agenda and get it thru.

At the end they will say " we CONsulted with the peak bodies".

Those who have been to this sort of meeting will know that the format remains the same.......regardless of the community sector.......the public servants spend a lot of time selling the preformatted and largely decided polocy and are not interested in doing much listening.

It is only when there is a large groundswell of consistent objection that government opinion will be changed....and in the mean time there will be heaps of push and shove, in particular threats of even stricter measures than originally proposed.

In QLD the fisheries department has been pushing an agenda on snapper, bassed on almost non existant science for over 5 years, very, very agressivly....it has only recently folded to a reasonable position, under consistent and unrelenting preasure from all and sundry.

Remember they will try every dirty trick in the book to push their polocy agenda.....especially including devide and conquer......and they are persistent and unwavering in their goal.

The only thing to combat this is a consistent and reasonable argument presented on mass...and prefereably supported by special interest media and the forum owners.

cheers

whizzo
Need to get out more
Posts: 4852
Joined: November 22nd, 2009, 10:43 am

Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by whizzo » September 11th, 2011, 11:44 am

locked_hj wrote: i can put my finger on about half a dozen REAL XY GTHO's in sheds all over perth, and QLD for that matter, i have a Series II LWB Rover in my front yard that has been quietly rusting (aluminium rusting, yeah rite) for the last 20 odd years. (72 model and still runs like a goat), a 350 Chev powered Torana up the road, an 80 round the corner thats lifted, along with my old HJ75. the thing is that this is never gunna stop, there's always a way around anything, like Brooksey, Bub, TJM, ARB have proved, no matter the opposition the Australian people will find a better way. yes car's will rust away, but the engineered ones will possibly live on or get rebuilt, BUILT NOT BOUGHT. and btw Hiluxes will rust regardless.

Edit: this is in reponse to a previous post, on page 4. my mistake if it's off topic and rambling, my mistake.
Yeh there are remnant vehicles from the past all over the place, but they are just that a very small remnant of the much larger number that existed in the day.
We see very very few of those vehicles existing as daily drivers like they were in the day.

cheers

hyzook
Getting to know the place
Posts: 14
Joined: November 22nd, 2010, 9:12 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by hyzook » September 11th, 2011, 2:54 pm

whizzo wrote:One thing that we must all understand is that this is all suposed to be about a national and agreed standard for vehicle modifications, so we don't have the BS situation where a vehicle cant be driven or reregistered in another state with out compliance issues.

And there are those on both sides of the argument that seem to be forgetting this.



cheers
VSB14 is national standard but states can use it as a guide line and create a VSI (50) which over rules it, this is what NSW RTA is planning on doing. It really makes VSB14 a waste of time as it will not make the states line up so even once introduced we are still where we started....

Now I here all this forum talk (so must be true) that I cannot drive my modified vehicle in other states (I have plenty of times) as it is not legal???? I would like to know if this is actual fact????
It is my understanding that if a vehicle is registered and roadworthy in its home state or territory then it is automatically allowed to drive in another state, my vehicle although modified is registered and roadworthy therefor I see not reason why I cannot drive in another state.

Has anyone here actually been defected and if so how was the defect handled? Did the RTA recognize an interstate defect?

TuffTD42
Here and there
Posts: 32
Joined: June 20th, 2011, 4:43 pm
Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 11th, 2011, 5:10 pm

hyzook, if it's engineered say in NSW then that engineers cert only applies to NSW. If you drive it in QLD then you run the the risk of getting defected in QLD.

I think once you return to NSW your all right. Think you might have to contact the RTA & might have to get your rig checked to make sure it still complies with the engineers cert in NSW. Then they send the appropriate paper work to QLD DOT.

I've heard that if you do nothing & you get caught driving it again in QLD then you get done for driving whilst defected.

hyzook
Getting to know the place
Posts: 14
Joined: November 22nd, 2010, 9:12 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by hyzook » September 11th, 2011, 7:45 pm

Fair enough, crazy but what would I know........
I wonder if a NSW cop can say a QLD car is not legal as it was not pink slipped at last rego as it is requirement of NSW rego (is it QLD or VIC that has not pink slip?)
But anyway this is way off topic so carry on with the VSB/VSI debate as it is rather entertaining and I feel awareness of it is a great thing.

Vossy
Been here a while
Posts: 162
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 6:33 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Vossy » September 11th, 2011, 10:48 pm

Crossed over into NSW today, I'm such a rebel.

cac
Need to get out more
Posts: 7008
Joined: August 29th, 2007, 9:38 pm

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by cac » September 12th, 2011, 2:34 pm

Not really, a 70 series tyre does seem to be an ideal compromise to fit as you need to have a balance between performance and handling.

The bigger the profile, the taller the tyre which basically means that riding on an 85 series tyre would be very comfortable compared to a 60 series tyre, though with the increased height profile comes flex, although it means comfort, it also equates to instability especially around corners compared to a 60 series tyres for arguments sake where the lower profile sidewall would give you better handling particularly when cornering.

Fitting the right tyre on a work or construction vehicle is very important as you don’t have the “Good” suspension to soak up the bumps so to speak as the tyre will do a lot of that work for you. It’s cheaper for the manufacturer to do that than fit better suspension….
cheers for that.....I've seen proof of your last paragraph with the tractors lol....except they have no rear suspension whatsoever, and I haven't seen any springs or shocks on the front end....
If you fit just a 20mm increased tyre size, it reduces the vehicles ability to stop as efficiently as a standard tyre as it has a greater force of vehicle to handle, something which has to be taken into account when also determining the towing capacity as this also will alter the vehicle to handle safely a particular towing weight.
this reduced efficiency in braking and handling is a function of increased weight as well as increased size though isn't it?? As per my examples of the 50% wider tyre vs the ~50mm taller tyre in my post above, its the wider tyre that would have the greater effect isn't it (all else being equal)??
LN106 Hilux Project

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=82487

locked_hj
Avid Poster
Posts: 670
Joined: January 4th, 2010, 10:38 pm
Location: Perth WA

Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by locked_hj » September 12th, 2011, 9:36 pm

whizzo wrote:
Yeh there are remnant vehicles from the past all over the place, but they are just that a very small remnant of the much larger number that existed in the day.
We see very very few of those vehicles existing as daily drivers like they were in the day.

cheers

Whizzo, my point is that most of the old vehicles arent around is because they're not very economical/uncomfortable/painful to drive. the old rigs are built to last as opposed to the new cars that are only designed to last 4-5yrs.

Return to “Anything to do with 4WD's &/or related to Fourby's”