4WDers and the National Code for Mods - Latest info

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ERASER
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by ERASER » September 9th, 2011, 5:57 pm

Bludge wrote:
ERASER wrote:
Its a little bit differant in that a 4wd driver trainer will be allowing you to drive an otherwsie non compliant car on the road amongst other road users. Having been a member of a couple of clubs and having done driver training in the past, 4wd driver training teaches you offroad driving, it has nothing to do with driving a modified car and the effects the mods have on a public road. Yet according to the above rules having done a 4wd training course and being a member of an affiliated 4wd club you will be allowed to drive a modified otherwise non compliant car on the road with other road users with ZERO onroad training .......................
The 4WD Trainer is not letting anyone drive a modified vehicle in anyway. What the trainer is doing is saying that the vehicle driver has acquired the competency to be able to drive a 4WD vehicle.

Its the RTA not anyone else (including 4WD NSW & ACT) that determines that this certification allows you can drive that modified vehicle.

The same way as a your normal driving licence, the tester stated that you are competent to drive a vehicle on the road, he does not state that it needs to be a small hatchback or a sedan, a 4WD or even a 3 tonne truck.
Yes but the point im making is that with these new rules (if its true) a member of an affiliated 4wd club that has done driver training is then able to drive a more modified 4wd on the road, which he/she has had no training provided to drive a more modified 4wd on road, they've only had off road training.
my lux is only good for driving through puddles and i dont know anything.........
My Hilux

TuffTD42
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Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 9th, 2011, 6:46 pm

cockles wrote:
TuffTD42 wrote: X2 on the 4wd association. The club I'm with is not affiliated with them because there a bunch of #$%@$#$@! There in it for the money not to help us out.

They have obviously done that back door deal. How's that for stabbing your fellow members in the back!

Can we back off the crap for a while until the truth comes out and not what one person was apparently told.

I think we all need to take a breath and see what comes out in the next couple of days or so before bagging the state associations and the state transport authourities.

Cheers
Crap you say ay cockles? Well I no a nice little episode that involves the 4wd association. They are nothing but liars & a bunch of scum. (my opinion)!

It's not really appropriate for this thread as the thread has seemed to got a little side tracked. but you have to under stand, not everybody in the 4wd community is happy with a 2" lift & small tyres.

There is nothing wrong with a few of us venting on here because our rights a being taken away!

I'm glad Brendan has started this thread & I am looking forward to see what Andrew Stoner has got to say.

gqjay
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by gqjay » September 9th, 2011, 6:58 pm

Craig 04gu wrote:I'll just lower my headlights :D
Mate that's a good idea. And will be exactly what I'm will do. Driving lights in the bulbar, it been done a number of times and it even in one of the dvd's with a 100 series....

stockhorse
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by stockhorse » September 9th, 2011, 7:22 pm

"To put another spin on it, to drive an older fully restored vehicle on limited registration (what is it? 90 days a year?) you have to be a member of a club. It really isn't any different."
Are you Joking?
It is the exact reversal of what the proposal is saying. If you want limited rego you must be a club member NOT if you don't want limited rego you have to be a club member.
One is giving a benefit for being a club member the other is stopping you being penalised if you are a club member,

Does this also then mean that it is actually the driver that is being assessed not the vehicle? If this is the case will there be provision for prior learning and past experience beyond the courses that will be required? If a driver has and advanced course cert or is in fact and instructor for such courses does this mean they can drive a vehicle with a 12" lift and whatever else since it is the driver not the vehicle being assessed.
If you have a semi licence should you be able to drive one of these modded vehicles without doing a 4x4 course as you are used to driving higher centre of gravity vehicles?
A whole lot of confusion and rubbish to sort through,either the vehicle is safe or the vehicle is unsafe driver input can not be a consideration

whizzo
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by whizzo » September 9th, 2011, 9:25 pm

And that is exactly the point that makes the proposal completly unmanagable.

It is the modified vehicle that must be assessed and registered and not the driver, this is a fundamental principle of transport regulation

It also makes regestration of a vehicle dependent on a qualification, this to would require a major change in transport regulation.
I can own a register any vehicle I like, regardless of having a licence to drive it.

If the vehicle is to be modified and be assessed as legal and registered to drive on the road it should be able to be driven by anybody with the correct class of licence.

All the vehicles under existing restricted licening (as far as I understand) can be driven by anybody and no additional qualifications are required.

And yes the 4wd training course is completly irrelivent to the matter of on road safety and has no standing in driver licencing.


This restricted licencing proposal is saying that drivers of modified 4wds are dangerous.....we will permit the vehicle if the driver is retrained.

It is a fundamental failure in legal reasoning, the compliance of the vehicle and the competence of the driver are two seperate issues.
They have tried to mix 3 systems that do not relate to each other
vehicle compliance
driver licencing
vocational training

cheers

Bludge
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Joined: December 15th, 2005, 7:58 pm
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 9th, 2011, 9:38 pm

stockhorse wrote: Does this also then mean that it is actually the driver that is being assessed not the vehicle? If this is the case will there be provision for prior learning and past experience beyond the courses that will be required? If a driver has and advanced course cert or is in fact and instructor for such courses does this mean they can drive a vehicle with a 12" lift and whatever else since it is the driver not the vehicle being assessed.
If you have a semi licence should you be able to drive one of these modded vehicles without doing a 4x4 course as you are used to driving higher centre of gravity vehicles?
A whole lot of confusion and rubbish to sort through,either the vehicle is safe or the vehicle is unsafe driver input can not be a consideration
Stockhorse

Don't be drawn into combining the certification of a person and the effects of VSI50 on your vehicle. So being a association member is no silver bullet...

If you are a member of a Affiliated 4WD Club but have no certification, you will restricted, just like everyone else.

If you are an affiliated club membe,r have certification, through the associations RTO or from a commercial provider, it appears that you may get some leniency.
As an individual or non affiliated club you can apply for exemption if you can demonstrate a requirement provided you have completed a certified course.

They do this with shooters, member of a club, you are normally ok, but farmers have to apply for rifles to kill vermin and prove that this is their main use and provide a gun safe etc.

So.....
The accreditation is of the persons ability not the vehicle, just like the standard driving test, once the competency is met you can drive any car from a mini to a 3 tonne truck.

In simple terms, Training someone to shoot a pistol does not mean they are competent to shoot a rifle or a shotgun.
Driving a semi and driving a 4WD do not necessarily have the same competency, or are you suggesting that a person who drives a 4WD, as Suzuki or Patrol can drive a semi?

RPL or recognition of prior learning is part or any RTO, provided you meet the criteria of proof RPL is then accepted.

I can't say for sure but what I believe is being suggested is that people who have taken on further certified training will understand the dynamics of their vehicles better.

Suggesting that a 12" lift vehicle will be drivable because someone has a certificate is generous, but considering that 4WDs will be restricted either under VSB14 or VSI50 over 6" is an amusing statement.

There are many commercial organisations that provide this qualification to any driver in NSW and the ACT as well as every other state and territory.
This is not a new subject Do you think we need a special licence to drive 4WDS?

What I see happening here is that VSI50 is being sidelined, like it was during the last round of VSI50, the anger slanted to the association, its called divide and conquer, it seems to work.

stockhorse
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by stockhorse » September 9th, 2011, 11:48 pm

Stockhorse

Don't be drawn into combining the certification of a person and the effects of VSI50 on your vehicle. So being a association member is no silver bullet...

If you are a member of a Affiliated 4WD Club but have no certification, you will restricted, just like everyone else.So membership makes the difference not the completion of the course, as one is not recognised without the other.

If you are an affiliated club membe,r have certification, through the associations RTO or from a commercial provider, it appears that you may get some leniency. As above
As an individual or non affiliated club you can apply for exemption if you can demonstrate a requirement provided you have completed a certified course.

They do this with shooters, member of a club, you are normally ok, but farmers have to apply for rifles to kill vermin and prove that this is their main use and provide a gun safe etc.no relevence to this discussion

So.....
The accreditation is of the persons ability not the vehicle, just like the standard driving test, once the competency is met you can drive any car from a mini to a 3 tonne truck.Exactly, it is the vehicle being restricted by VSxxxx or any other regulation.You can not say that the vehicle is dangerous but can be driven by a club member who has done a course but can't be driven by a non club member who has done a course.That is discrimination at it's finest and shows a complete lack of regard for the actual safety of a vehicle being allowed on the road.

In simple terms, Training someone to shoot a pistol does not mean they are competent to shoot a rifle or a shotgun.?? relevence
Driving a semi and driving a 4WD do not necessarily have the same competency, or are you suggesting that a person who drives a 4WD, as Suzuki or Patrol can drive a semi?The discussion was around raised centre of gravity of vehicles with "excessive" lifts thus the comment about semi drivers. I am not suggesting that a person who drives a 4x4 can drive a semi ,I am suggesting that a person who drives a semi can drive a Suzuki or patrol (with a lift)

RPL or recognition of prior learning is part or any RTO, provided you meet the criteria of proof RPL is then accepted.

I can't say for sure but what I believe is being suggested is that people who have taken on further certified training will understand the dynamics of their vehicles better.

Suggesting that a 12" lift vehicle will be drivable because someone has a certificate is generous, but considering that 4WDs will be restricted either under VSB14 or VSI50 over 6" is an amusing statement.But the suggestion that the vehicle with 6" lift would only be drivable by the person with the certificate and not by any normal road user, must cast doubt about the safety of the vehicle,so you have made my point suggesting any vehicle is drivable becuase someone has a certificate is not generous it is discriminatory and dangerous

There are many commercial organisations that provide this qualification to any driver in NSW and the ACT as well as every other state and territory.
This is not a new subject Do you think we need a special licence to drive 4WDS?no not a new subject that thread was raised to cover safe recovery techniques following another unfortunate accident due to lack of experience and guidance. Not to discuss do you need a special licence for a 2' lift and another for lockers etc etc.

What I see happening here is that VSI50 is being sidelined, like it was during the last round of VSI50, the anger slanted to the association, its called divide and conquer, it seems to work.I don't see how you see it being sidelined. this discussion about being able to use /register your vehicle only if a member of a club and having completed a course is most relevent to the proposal.Where is the divide and conquer?

Black Bull
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Black Bull » September 10th, 2011, 12:41 am

All that aside, doing a driver training course for a lot of us would mean squat.

Recently a woman who is an accredited driver trainer of more than 3 years came on a run with some guys I knew (mostly active 4WD events competitors), things went a little pear shaped on that run, she freely admitted she'd learnt more in one Saturday than she had in all her driver training courses combined.

.....Go figure.

Just like when I did my Truck licence test, I was teaching the instructor things about his own bloody truck!!

It's just another attempt to pass the buck by a dim witted, misbegotten bunch of idiots who know they have nothing to loose as they won't be back come the next election.

I say we all chip in, buy the Pilabara and make our own damn little country and tell Canberra to go screw themselves :thumb:

locked_hj
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Location: Perth WA

Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by locked_hj » September 10th, 2011, 2:41 am

whizzo wrote:I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, just trying to get people to under stand the very good reasons why, regulations like we are seeing are comming into play.

Those of you that do not understand the the landcruser wjp341 as pictured in post 11, is in the view of the vast majority of the general public excessive and threatening....you simply do not even begin to understand this issue.

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder, no doubt that this vehicle is properly engineered and some people will find it beautifull...but the vast majority of the general public simply see it as dangerous and threatening

My opinion is not what matters, what matters is the view of the majority of the general public and those who frame the regulations on their behalf.

And yes motor vehicles have very short lives, especially modified ones, only a very small persentage last more than 10 years...where are all those V8 capris, 2 litre anglias, V8 LJ toranas..yeh all melted down to make hyundia's...and what about all those landrovers that got p76 V8s or holden or ford sixes and toyoat diffs ( that was huge in the late 70's early 80's)......even the majority of the factory modded cars are gone....most of the GT HO falcons got wrapped arround trees or otherwised demised.........How many of those 4wd falcons survived.
i can put my finger on about half a dozen REAL XY GTHO's in sheds all over perth, and QLD for that matter, i have a Series II LWB Rover in my front yard that has been quietly rusting (aluminium rusting, yeah rite) for the last 20 odd years. (72 model and still runs like a goat), a 350 Chev powered Torana up the road, an 80 round the corner thats lifted, along with my old HJ75. the thing is that this is never gunna stop, there's always a way around anything, like Brooksey, Bub, TJM, ARB have proved, no matter the opposition the Australian people will find a better way. yes car's will rust away, but the engineered ones will possibly live on or get rebuilt, BUILT NOT BOUGHT. and btw Hiluxes will rust regardless.

Edit: this is in reponse to a previous post, on page 4. my mistake if it's off topic and rambling, my mistake.

Paul100
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Paul100 » September 10th, 2011, 3:16 am

Ok, I've had enough of the lies & missinformation by those who don't know or didn't attend the last meeting!!!
I don't care who knows who or who give's a rats bum ok! VSI 50/VSB 14 [or whatever numbers they are offhand] -

Is there any reason why 4WD Action didn't attend the meeting on September 3rd when they were invited to do so by the 4WDNSW-ACT & RTA & others.................... what was the reason why then? & since they didn't attend - why do they request information from 4WDNSW-ACT now if it wasn't important before? An explanation is now required, thanks.

Ohh well, I don't care if I get band from this site as others have before on this topic - when it was the original do Australia on 2inch lift & 33's article that stirred up the hornets nest in the first place to cause these issues! - as known before by those in the 4WD industry know! Please stick together on these 4WD issues's, thanks! I've said [unoffically] enough!

[.....yes - Freedom of speach, according to a PM [Private Message] I got so far!]

Wilesy
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Wilesy » September 10th, 2011, 7:41 am

With any debate, you always need to look at both sides of the argument to reach a better understanding of the reasons behind any push for a change.

Let’s begin with a lift. Let’s assume that someone wants to lift their 4x4 higher than the normal 50mm. This changes many things and dramatically changes the behaviour of the vehicle in question.

This to begin with changes the centre of gravity where you can no longer expect that the vehicle can go around a corner at the same speed as one that has a standard factory height, many may argue that it may drive better and handle better, this may be true, but how can you guarantee that the suspension you have chosen is safe, does handle as well or better than a standard machine etc.

We have all read many comparisons which have been conducted thorough the mag and we all know there are good and bad in all makes and products and not all do as they claim.

There does need to be some guidelines and rules governing this area in question. We don’t want to find out that someone has had an accident causing a fatality and is deemed the changes you have made to the vehicle a direct cause to the incident which will no doubt change things for everyone as governments do have a reputation for knee jerk reactions.

I can go on for days about this subject but let’s move to the next area.

Tyres….Mmmm.

Lets assume that we can all just put any tyre we like so that we can push through mud at the weekend.

The wider the tyre the more likely it has to suffer from aquaplaning during wet weather, the weight of the vehicle and many other factors determine the reason certain sized tyres are fitted to a particular vehicle.

The higher the sidewall the less stable it is during cornering, the wider the tyre the heavier it is and makes the brakes less efficient, then there is the fact that it all needs to be inside the body of the vehicle etc, etc.

Then there is the safety aspect, if you decide to go a much bigger tyre than standard, it may interfere with steering components, suspension, and even may cause failure because the brake linings were too short and the guy who fitted the tyre never thought of that happening.

Fitting 315/16/85 tyres on a Suzuki LJ80 which is about 800kgs will have much different effect on it’s drivability than fitting the same tyres to an F250 V8 diesel dual cab….

We have to be sensible though unfortunately there are many people who think that legislators do things just to upset others where sometimes it’s to make us all safe.

I started thinking about this subject many years ago when I started a conversation with a fellow 4 wheel driver who had a 12 inch lifted GQ patrol, it looked the business, went off road like a dream though he admitted to me that he wouldn’t attempt to drive around a corner over 80kph because he believed it would tip over…

That’s not good for anyone.

I speak with a reasonable amount of knowledge in this area as I worked for Goodyear Tyre Company for a number of years as a tyre builder, I have spent a lot of time in their research and development laboratory and have a reasonable amount of understanding how a tyre reacts under certain conditions, why size is important and must be matched with a certain size vehicle as steering, cornering, performance, braking and longevity are determined on many things which the weight and size of a vehicle can determine the performance figures which have been exhaustively tested in this area.

You can’t just chuck any sized tyre on any vehicle without having consequences, not saying good or bad, but lets just say different for arguments sake..

So I am not being negative, I am all for lifting our vehicles, doing what we love to do but we all have to be sensible and unfortunately sometimes legislate for the people who don’t think about the safety of others until it’s too late.

I look forward to all of your opinions on what has just been said.

Lets start a good constructive debate on the subject as knowledge is power and I am all for learning and changing my opinions if the right information is brought forward.
Kind Regards,
Pete.

yobbo112
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by yobbo112 » September 10th, 2011, 8:37 am

^Ditto
You can't tell me 285 r16 on a 4 door jk wrangler that came out of the factory with 265's is dangerous though.....
It won't affect centre of gravity as much as a suspension lift, or body lift therefore should be judged separate.
not under this max 50mm without engineering, or 150mm max...
susppension and body lift though, i agree with those being under the same category, just not the tyres.
They should be judged on the size of the vehicle....
Don't Lock Up Australia!!!!!!

TuffTD42
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Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 10th, 2011, 10:00 am

I can't see how my 8" lifted lwb GQ was & is legal now they are saying that it's not. It got engineered passed the tests it was put through & now they say to mod another gq in the same way is not safe.

I would like to know how many gq patrols running 35" tyres & 6" spring lift have been involved in accidents, & was the tyres & or suspension to blame.

Aren't all lwb gq 's the same? You would think once one was engineered with a certain lift & tyre size that any other GQ could go & get the same setup. & I mean same spring brand,pound & shocks etc.

Surely a better system could be thought up than what they have with the vsi50 etc. Say for example A 2" lift & 31's might be the max for a suzuki & maybe only a 3-4" lift & 35's for a swb gq.

A system that takes into account each individual model of vehicle not just blanket the whole lot with one setup.

Bludge
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Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Bludge » September 10th, 2011, 11:43 am

stockhorse wrote:Stockhorse

Don't be drawn into combining the certification of a person and the effects of VSI50 on your vehicle. So being a association member is no silver bullet...

If you are a member of a Affiliated 4WD Club but have no certification, you will restricted, just like everyone else.So membership makes the difference not the completion of the course, as one is not recognised without the other.

Membership helps but is not the the only criteria, the vehicle still needs to comply with the rules and as I said... but you ignored.
As an individual or non affiliated club you can apply for exemption if you can demonstrate a requirement provided you have completed a certified course.
If you are an affiliated club member, have certification, through the associations RTO or from a commercial provider, it appears that you may get some leniency. As above See below
As an individual or non affiliated club you can apply for exemption if you can demonstrate a requirement provided you have completed a certified course.

They do this with shooters, member of a club, you are normally ok, but farmers have to apply for rifles to kill vermin and prove that this is their main use and provide a gun safe etc.no relevence to this discussion I think there is a comparison, but your choice to ignore this.

So.....
The accreditation is of the persons ability not the vehicle, just like the standard driving test, once the competency is met you can drive any car from a mini to a 3 tonne truck.Exactly, it is the vehicle being restricted by VSxxxx or any other regulation.You can not say that the vehicle is dangerous but can be driven by a club member who has done a course but can't be driven by a non club member who has done a course.That is discrimination at it's finest and shows a complete lack of regard for the actual safety of a vehicle being allowed on the road.
I have never said, suggested or mentioned, that anyone should drive a vehicle that "is dangerous" I would suggest that they don't. You used the words "vehicles with "excessive" lifts".
Would you let an new driver who only drives a hatchback to drive a 3 tonne truck?
Their licence allows them to, the deterent is when they try to hire one the insurance execcss is $6,500...
There are many vehicles driven on the road that require "special conditions or licences" this is not determined by a club or the Association, but by the RTA.

As I have said and repeated.. ANYONE can apply for an exception, individual or non affiliated club.


In simple terms, Training someone to shoot a pistol does not mean they are competent to shoot a rifle or a shotgun.?? relevence Simply because you have a car licences does not mean you automatically mean you are competent to drive a Lamborghini or a 3 tonne truck or a V8 around Bathurst. Opps of course you need a CAMS licence to drive that modified vehicle.

You indicated that because someone can drive a truck that is designed to do a job that they can drive a 4WD that has been modified beyond its original design....


Driving a semi and driving a 4WD do not necessarily have the same competency, or are you suggesting that a person who drives a 4WD, as Suzuki or Patrol can drive a semi?The discussion was around raised centre of gravity of vehicles with "excessive" lifts thus the comment about semi drivers. I am not suggesting that a person who drives a 4x4 can drive a semi , I am suggesting that a person who drives a semi can drive a Suzuki or patrol (with a lift)

Trucks are engineered and designed to carry a load, I don't see drivers of trucks modifying or raising the suspension of their trucks, 4WDer's do..

RPL or recognition of prior learning is part or any RTO, provided you meet the criteria of proof RPL is then accepted.

I can't say for sure but what I believe is being suggested is that people who have taken on further certified training will understand the dynamics of their vehicles better.

Suggesting that a 12" lift vehicle will be drivable because someone has a certificate is generous, but considering that 4WDs will be restricted either under VSB14 or VSI50 over 6" is an amusing statement.But the suggestion that the vehicle with 6" lift would only be drivable by the person with the certificate and not by any normal road user, must cast doubt about the safety of the vehicle,so you have made my point suggesting any vehicle is drivable becuase someone has a certificate is not generous it is discriminatory and dangerous
If you own a modified 4WD with a 6" lift, would you allow any Joe Blow off the street to drive it in normal conditions? Possibly not, you may let someone drive it with some 4WD experience, (or a semi driver!).

There are many commercial organisations that provide this qualification to any driver in NSW and the ACT as well as every other state and territory.
This is not a new subject Do you think we need a special licence to drive 4WDS?no not a new subject that thread was raised to cover safe recovery techniques following another unfortunate accident due to lack of experience and guidance. Not to discuss do you need a special licence for a 2' lift and another for lockers etc etc. So the training, certification or a special licence is plausible for one aspect of owning a 4WD but only when it suits?

What I see happening here is that VSI50 is being sidelined, like it was during the last round of VSI50, the anger slanted to the association, its called divide and conquer, it seems to work.I don't see how you see it being sidelined. this discussion about being able to use /register your vehicle only if a member of a club and having completed a course is most relevent to the proposal.Where is the divide and conquer?


As I have said and repeated.. ANYONE can apply for an exception, individual or non affiliated club. This thread is making out that only Association Club members can do this. Thats the divide.

hyzook
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by hyzook » September 10th, 2011, 12:01 pm

Paul100 wrote:Ok, I've had enough of the lies & missinformation by those who don't know or didn't attend the last meeting!!!
I don't care who knows who or who give's a rats bum ok! VSI 50/VSB 14 [or whatever numbers they are offhand] -

Is there any reason why 4WD Action didn't attend the meeting on September 3rd when they were invited to do so by the 4WDNSW-ACT & RTA & others.................... what was the reason why then? & since they didn't attend - why do they request information from 4WDNSW-ACT now if it wasn't important before? An explanation is now required, thanks.

Ohh well, I don't care if I get band from this site as others have before on this topic - when it was the original do Australia on 2inch lift & 33's article that stirred up the hornets nest in the first place to cause these issues! - as known before by those in the 4WD industry know! Please stick together on these 4WD issues's, thanks! I've said [unoffically] enough!

[.....yes - Freedom of speach, according to a PM [Private Message] I got so far!]
OK I agree here with the misinformation being spread, but this post shows it is coming from both sides. 4WD Action WERE NOT invited as I asked could they be, another on the working party asked if Nissan and Toyota clubs could be invited but it was decided not. It was decided for very good reasons too, It is like a union fighting for rights of union workers- if the union was fighting for non members as well then the members may not like that. We must remember here the RTA invited the Association and the Association role is to do the best for its members. Don't start on benefits to the association by now have a draw card to get members because we have heard it and I know it and I am not saying you are wrong.

I just wish all the secrecy and fighting could be put aside and get on with whatever happens. All those who are not members have the right to whinge scream and do as they please and I can assure you if I was not privileged to the information I have I would be currently sitting on Stoners door step screaming like a madman. These people have no option but to assume as no one -not even the RTA can tell them what is happening.

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