4WDers and the National Code for Mods - Latest info

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TuffTD42
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Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 6th, 2011, 9:42 pm

whizzo wrote:
As for those who are rushing out to get their soon to be noncompliant vehicles, engineered ahead of the changes......those vehicles are insignificant because the vast majority of them will be scrap metal within 5 years. Your talking nonsense here.Those with engineers reports will be worth way more than those without.

Those that remain after the changes will continue to be "targets for harassment" and quite rightly so. And again.

Look at the high lifted and big tyres landcruser pictured above..that is what all this is about, the general public and the vast majority want to be "protected" from vehicles like that..and it is very hard to justify such things on a reasonable basis in a forum that matters.....parliment. You refering to Black bulls?

In truth most of the general public would not recognise a vehicle with a 3 inch total lift as being modified, and a tastefully done and properly engineered 4 or 6 inch lifted vehicle most of the public would not find threatening. Once again your talking nonsense. BlackBulls rig is what 6" total & it looks to be tastefully done as you put it. I think you are being a hypocrit. You all for 2" lift etc then 4-6" lift is ok if it's tastefully done. whats tastefully?

cheers
Regardless of what do-gooders say or what law changes come about they will never stamp out our big tyred,lifted rigs. There are plenty of us willing to take the risk of running our perfectly safe 4,6,8" lifted rigs on the road & off as has been the case since I can remember.

Why should we just lay down without a fight & accept what the government & do-gooders want?

Black Bull
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Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by Black Bull » September 6th, 2011, 11:25 pm

Whizzo,
are you deliberatly trying to start an agument with every member of the forum ?
I offered my vehicle up as an example of what can be done within the rules.

That said I could put 80 series diffs under my Hilux (in fact have some here to do just that)
and still legally run a 35" Micky Thompson MTZ tyre as they only measure in at 855mm
Much the same can be said of running Patrol diffs, espically GU items.

This isn't the "end of modified trucks" we just need to adapt to the rules and lean how to work with them


Under the new VSB14, the ONLY thing that will be illegal will be the 3" spring lift.
I'd rather not, but if it comes to pass, I'll reduce the ride hight, add a 2" body lift and reduce the hight of my bumpstops a little to keep my uptravel and make my vehicle 1" higher
and have it all legal. :crazy:

Seriously. pick an argument and stick to it.....
As I have picked on from the start is the stupid ruleing that you have to have a max 2" spring lift (which would affect most grey nomads and tourers too) and a two inch body lift. (which most late model vehciles cannot run, especially monobody vehicles like jeeps etc.)
When a propely setup 3-4" spring lift is a much more viable option. unles you care to explain why a body lift is a better option of course ?
That said, Could I ask what your credentials are that give you the insight into the rules that few seemso eager to share ?
Are you a suspension specialist ? an automotive engineer ? or at the least a mechanic ?

Me, I did my time building street car, circuit racing and hotrod suspensions from scratch, I know what effects this and that etc ad nausim

at the end of the day, regardless of what you put under the truck, if you get the geomerty right it'll work, Companies like Superior Engineering, Pedders, TJM and ARB spend 10's of thousands of dollars doing just that.

Then think of the follow on effects. how many suspension specialist have the lions share of buisness from us 4WD guys ? small guys like myself, Bubs, Brooksey and Mental.
Companies like Tough Dog for example, if they expericance a big downturn in sales, jobs will be lost and sponsership for club run events and others like tough truck will be a thing of the past.

Think of the big picture mate....

Brendan
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Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by Brendan » September 7th, 2011, 3:30 pm

Sorry for the delay in reply, been extremely busy with the Melbourne 4WD Show. Now the dust has settled it's time to get stuck back into this. We currently are waiting on official responses from SA, QLD and VIC Transport Depts this afternoon.
Brendan Seymour - Editor
4WD Action

94 4Runner; Lexus V8, 33in MTZs, barwork, lights, locked, etc
72 Rangie; 351, C4, 37s, gearing, GQ diffs, Air Lockers, chopped.

whizzo
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Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by whizzo » September 7th, 2011, 11:37 pm

I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, just trying to get people to under stand the very good reasons why, regulations like we are seeing are comming into play.

Those of you that do not understand the the landcruser wjp341 as pictured in post 11, is in the view of the vast majority of the general public excessive and threatening....you simply do not even begin to understand this issue.

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder, no doubt that this vehicle is properly engineered and some people will find it beautifull...but the vast majority of the general public simply see it as dangerous and threatening

My opinion is not what matters, what matters is the view of the majority of the general public and those who frame the regulations on their behalf.

And yes motor vehicles have very short lives, especially modified ones, only a very small persentage last more than 10 years...where are all those V8 capris, 2 litre anglias, V8 LJ toranas..yeh all melted down to make hyundia's...and what about all those landrovers that got p76 V8s or holden or ford sixes and toyoat diffs ( that was huge in the late 70's early 80's)......even the majority of the factory modded cars are gone....most of the GT HO falcons got wrapped arround trees or otherwised demised.........How many of those 4wd falcons survived.

Older modified vehicles don't matter from the point of view or regulations, they will fall to the ground like leave off a tree and decompose, newly modified ones will spring up in their place very very quicly.

Blackbull has grasped the way forward, and that is to work within the regulations...just like every competeitive race car ever built.
Ya read the regs the do the modifications.

I've been looking at the way various 4wds are currently modified, and frankly it is generally pretty crude.

for example
I hear plenty of talk about lifting things......but on my hilux ( and every other hilux ever made) the single biggest obsticle in the design as far as ramp over is the transfer case......I have heard not one mention of anybody raising the transfercase to improve this...it might mean a body lift or some floor pan work and perhaps lifting or tilting the motor... but a reasonable mod.....never heard.... nothing in VSB14 stopping that.

As I have mentioned before..lots of body lifts are done simply to allow fitting of larger tyres......people have been doing body modifications to allow fitting of larger tyres for decades..... but body lifting for this purpose is almost unheard of on street cars...mainly because it isn't possible........but there is no restriction on shaping guards to achieve the same result.

What I find conspicuous is VSB14, is what is not mentioned, no mention of body chops that are so common in hotrods, no mention of emmissions compliance for substitute engines appart from compliance with ADRS, no mention of exhaust noise requirements, no mention of alterations to GVM or towing capaicty and so many other issues that remain a legal matter.


In fact VSB14 does not and can not in its self exclude lifts over 6 inches total, it simply says it does not cover them, if a state decided to, it could fully impliment VSB14 and still permit higher lifts but outside of the nationally standardised framework.

If that was the case at least we would still have a standardised system where by modifications done and certified within VSB14 in one state would be legal in another, and remove the need to recompliance a modified vehicle when reregistering in another state as is now the case.

It worth it for that alone........but I fear even that will be a vain hope.

cheers

cockles
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Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by cockles » September 8th, 2011, 12:24 am

peteinoz wrote:Erhm Whizzo, you do realise this is a 4wd enthusiasts forum?
Aw, come on Pete why would you say that :) :)

The VSB14 is still a live work in progress so it is still open for discussion. It is not done an dusted as some people woul make others believe.

Cheers

whizzo
Need to get out more
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Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by whizzo » September 8th, 2011, 12:48 am

YEH so.

Ya think the issue will just go away, ya think that the small minority of highly visable, "threatening" vehicles are not making it very very much harder for the rest of us as far as regulation and public opinion.

Ya think that a 4wd enthusiast has to support jacked up trucks with big wheels.

There are thousands upon thousands of us out here that would be very happy with a couple of inches of lift and maybe some sligltly larger tyres, perhaps some engine mods that we don't have to engineer and we don't have to spend many thousands $$ to do.

But no, unless I want or support rediculous lifts and huge wheels that make my vehicle non compliant with the rules that the manufacturer had to comply with and a menace on the road I must not be a 4wd enthusiast.

Like it or not, national standard regulations WILL come, and for the vast majority of us it will be a very good thing, we will be able to travel and reregister interstate knowing our mods are 100% legal.

It would be a whole lot better if a few minor things were changed to make the whole thing a lot more tolerable for the majority.
And that is where the energy should be directed... and that is what we should be discussing.

But

If you think it will all be thrown out, and the mods polocies of the past will continue or return you are dreaming.
Those on the conservative side have a very very strong case and it is supported by public opinion and political will.

cheers

Brendan
4WD Action Staff
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by Brendan » September 8th, 2011, 2:07 pm

Okay, so a big update.

We've got sources who have passed across to us, the latest version of Vehicle Standards Bulletin 50 for NSW. Yep, VSI50 is back again and worse than ever.

Up until now this document has been kept confidential, because even those who are pushing for it from the RTA believe they'll have serious issues getting it through parliament once the public know about it. Does this reek or what?

VSI50 has been developed off the back of VSB14, which as I posted previously is the guideline document. I will be posting up more information ASAP, but briefly in NSW;

Vehicles over 75mm headlight lift will require engineering
Vehicles over 75mm headlight lift will, even once engineered, be stuck with a conditional registration that limits where and when the vehicle can be driven on the road, except;
Such vehicles owned by members of an affiliated 4WD club and who have completed driver training will be exempt from such restrictions, as long as the headlight height isn't increased by more than 100mm.
No allowance will be made at all for vehicles with a headlight height increase of more than 150mm, and there is no provision for tyres bigger than 50mm.

So! This means anyone with a Patrol or Cruiser on 35s, or a dual-cab on 33s, is now forced to become a member of an affiliated NSW 4WD club or you'll have to justify why you're driving your vehicle if a police officer pulls you over. Yep, this definitely reeks.

Interestingly SA has come back saying they're not sure where they stand on VSB14 - if other states adopt it fully they will too, if other states adopt it in part then they aren't interested at all. We're still waiting to hear back from VIC and QLD.

I'll post up more information as soon as it comes to hand. Make sure to watch this thread.
Brendan Seymour - Editor
4WD Action

94 4Runner; Lexus V8, 33in MTZs, barwork, lights, locked, etc
72 Rangie; 351, C4, 37s, gearing, GQ diffs, Air Lockers, chopped.

calibrated
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by calibrated » September 8th, 2011, 2:15 pm

I wouldnt expect anything from QLD. They wouldnt be able to find chocolate at Max Brenner.
VW Amarok Trendline
http://www.ausamarok.com.au - Amarok Club Australia
http://www.wolf4x4.com.au - 4WD Accessories

TuffTD42
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Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 8th, 2011, 2:50 pm

I really would like to know where they are going to get there stats from. The RTA & nissan can't tell me the standard height of a gq patrol.

They're worried about the height of my lights if I lift my 4wd. How about they do something about the HID conversions in older vehicles & even some of the new vehicles that the do-gooders get around in.

This whole set of regs is built on what if's. What if a lifted 4wd hit a passenger car with it's bumper height being so hi etc. Not saying that highly modded 4wds arn't involved in accidents. I spend a lot of time on the hwy at all sorts of hours & all the accidents I have ever seen not one involved a highly modded 4wd.

They can bring in what laws they want. Won't stop me from modding my patrols the way I want. After a little while the heat will die down & no one will care to much. Drive sensibly & you won't get noticed as much.

As for those not engineered go out & get it done now. For the sake of $800 it's cheap piece of mind. If it fails engineers then it really shouldn't be on the rd.

As for whizzo mate you make me laugh with your ranting. first it was 5yrs a vehicle lasts now you've jumped to 10. Do I hear 15? Long live hk monaro's & xy falcons!

TuffTD42
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Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSB14 - National Code of Practice

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 8th, 2011, 3:08 pm

whizzo wrote:
And yes motor vehicles have very short lives, especially modified ones, only a very small persentage last more than 10 years...where are all those V8 capris, 2 litre anglias, V8 LJ toranas..yeh all melted down to make hyundia's...and what about all those landrovers that got p76 V8s or holden or ford sixes and toyoat diffs ( that was huge in the late 70's early 80's)......even the majority of the factory modded cars are gone....most of the GT HO falcons got wrapped arround trees or otherwised demised.........How many of those 4wd falcons survived.
You never been to a car/hotrod show. You obviously ain't with the times in some respects. You missed the muscle car craze over the last few years?

clever80
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by clever80 » September 8th, 2011, 3:12 pm

Someone just pointed me to this thread, I had to laugh, when was VSI50 ever taken of the table, certainly not by the RTA, it was always going to happen and they never stopped talking to interested parties.

gqjay
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by gqjay » September 8th, 2011, 4:14 pm

clever80 wrote:Someone just pointed me to this thread, I had to laugh, when was VSI50 ever taken of the table, certainly not by the RTA, it was always going to happen and they never stopped talking to interested parties.
I dont No why the original thread is not bought back up....this was never going to rest. we had a win a few months back waited until things went quiet, now its back.

it will happen, I dont know the why the RTA/DOT and the 4x4 association's include after market companies can;t get together and make a set of laws that in some guidelines of today modern day 4x4 driver... Work together in something like this... The laws that are now stated are not bad, its just the ride hight and tyres size.
a real 4" spring lift and 35's are not as dangerous as P plater speeding or drunk driver..

I was past today by a young fella in a patrol. 6-8'' lift 35's no flares 1tails no mud flaps, DOT car just cruised on pass.
So who knows whats happening

cac
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by cac » September 8th, 2011, 4:17 pm

I have heard not one mention of anybody raising the transfercase to improve this...it might mean a body lift or some floor pan work and perhaps lifting or tilting the motor... but a reasonable mod.....never heard.... nothing in VSB14 stopping that.
you can get slimline crossmembers for the transfer case....and there is also a kit available that rotates it so it sits up a bit higher....try here for more info:

http://locktup4x4.com.au/hilux-solid-fr ... train-108/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm seriously considering one or both of these options myself to improve the rampover angle of my lux.....and am have designed a flat tray that finishes at the end of the chassis rails to improve the departure angle....not sure if i'll go ahead and build this yet or not.....

All I want from these new laws is to be able to run a 2in lift and 31s without engineering, without a lane change test, or anything.....just rock up, get a blue slip, and get the vehicle rego'ed.....

on the topic of older cars too....how many of the original classics are daily driven, and how many are wrapped in cotton wool 360 odd days of the year, and only brought out for the car shows etc.....this is where the conditional or classic rego comes into it.....not normal rego....
LN106 Hilux Project

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=82487

yobbo112
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Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by yobbo112 » September 8th, 2011, 5:21 pm

Any chance we can get our hands on this updated copy?
this just goes to show you why the whole rta should get the ass,
They can't get nothing right.
I've got a question for you guys:
How many rta roadworkers are there to one shovel?
5, 1 who actually works and 4 to watch.....

Since there is no placard on my vehicle determining ride height, how do they know how much the vehicle has been lifted?
Don't Lock Up Australia!!!!!!

TuffTD42
Here and there
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Location: Orange NSW

Re: VSI50 Back On The Cards Again! See page 4 for update

Unread post by TuffTD42 » September 8th, 2011, 5:36 pm

Vehicles over 75mm headlight lift will, even once engineered, be stuck with a conditional registration that limits where and when the vehicle can be driven on the road, except;
Such vehicles owned by members of an affiliated 4WD club and who have completed driver training will be exempt from such restrictions, as long as the headlight height isn't increased by more than 100mm.
So they are saying it here themselves. It's not the modded 4wd but it's the person behind the wheel. All of a sudden if you've got a piece of paper saying that your in a club & have attended a driver training course your modded 4wd no longer presents as a dangerous hazard to other road users.

What a bunch of hypercritical experts that we have running the country!

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