Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

troopy666
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Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by troopy666 » September 5th, 2016, 7:56 pm

Gday,

Wondering if anyone can help me??

I've got an 80 series with 1HDT motor that is going through a bit of engine oil. I just did a service, emptied catch can during service and have been keeping a close eye on oil level.

Since the service i've done maybe 300-400km and have had to top her up with about 1 litre maybe more of engine oil after doing just that many kms. I checked the catch can to see if oil is ending up there but there was probly only about a shot glass if that in there, however, the oil in the catch can was quite burnt. And when I take the oil cap off the motor after driving it when the motors warm there's a bit of smoke that comes out (not a huge amount but still a bit). So I thought it may be a case of blow by (exhaust gas getting past the piston rings and coming back into motor and oil getting burnt in combustion), but it dosn't seem to be blowing an unusual amount of smoke from the exhaust. And certainly not blue smoke. A puff of black smoke on start up and if anything a bit of white smoke when giving it to it but not excessive.

The motor was rebuilt 80,000km ago so should be sweet. Previous owner reckons he rebuilt it because it was using oil but I guess the rebuild didn't fix the problem so he palmed it. I've got receipt for rebuild so I can see he's at least paid for a rebuild. There's no oil leaks and she's clean and dry underneath.

What can be causing the motor to be burning through oil??

Any help appreciated.

Cheers,

Alex :thumb:

Shann Low
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by Shann Low » September 6th, 2016, 1:47 am

There's a few things could cause it. Oil getting past the valve guides in the head, plus the turbo bearings are oil fed, so bearing seals leak can let oil go thru into the turbo and be burnt that way!.
Then of course worn oil rings & compression rings will let blow-by into the sump.
Oil can of course also leak out.
I am not a fan of catch can's on the 1HD-T because I believe it can pressurize the sump & force oil where it wasn't meant to go including past rear seal on the crank.

As an experiment, you could disconnect/plug your catch can and reconnect the oil line back to the manifiold where it was designed to go and see if your oil issue reduces.

OMMV (Others Mileage May Vary).

troopy666
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by troopy666 » September 6th, 2016, 6:58 pm

Thanks for reply mate. Interesting you say that about the catch can, because i've also got a secondary oil filter that the previous owner plumbed off the block next to the factory oil filter. And the volume of the secondary oil filter requires me to put probably an extra 4 litres of oil into motor when doing a service. So its a big filter that's probably messing around with oil pressure too. It does keep the oil really clean but i might have to try to disconnect that and plug up the port.

Cheers mate.

typhoeus
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by typhoeus » September 6th, 2016, 9:16 pm

From what you have said, I would have to agree with Shan re the valve guides of turbo seals. take her out to a long downhill run where you don't ned throttle to keep her going and let her run down the hill. At the bottom, put the foot down and observe if a cloud of blue/black smoke comes out the exhaust. If so, the valve seals/guides are R/S. Also, the turbo seals are important, as if you get too much oil thru there, the engine can start to run on the engine oil and you wont be able to shut it down. . . resulting in major destruction. The extra oil filtration shouldn't cause oil consumption I believe, In fact that gives you some reserve. If the catch can pipes are clear, and are connected to their original points, it too shouldn't cause oil consumption either, as the gasses are drawn thu as per factory, the can is just collecting non gaseous emissions ( oil, solid particles etc). This is designed to keep the intake clean and prevent build up of carbonised deposits around the valves

troopy666
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by troopy666 » September 9th, 2016, 9:32 pm

The turbo was also rebuilt the same time the motor was rebuilt. I don't understand how it could have this problem, all get rebuilt and still have the same problem. Unless maybe it was a dodgy rebuild. Thanks for your diagnosis fellas hopefully it hits the nail on the head and i can get this thing singing like it should be.

80rox
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by 80rox » October 9th, 2016, 8:37 am

Try removing oil filler cap with the engine running and block with the palm
of your hand give it a bit of a rev no pressure should build up indicating blow by.
White smoke possibly water getting into combustion chamber somehow.
Could be cracked cylinder wall giving these symptoms hope is is not good luck keep us posted with progress . Craig.

mydmax
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by mydmax » October 9th, 2016, 7:49 pm

Apart from Guides and stem seals,

What oil is being used in this engine?

Unless it is a well known recognized and trusted brand it may not be sealing rings very well and so more blowby will result.
The oil may also not perform well and thin out excessively causing the engine to burn more. Despite a rebuild, rings may not be bedded in well and so wall to ring sealing is poor.
Some loaded work while using Mobil Delvac MX should clean the internals and provide better ring and turbo seal sealing. Only after trying that should you then try and decide IF there is a continuing problem.
Poor oils, lots of them around, ie, cheap to buy, aren't going to perform well in your engine.

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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by Shann Low » October 10th, 2016, 6:16 pm

Something just came back to me about my experience with my 1HD-T engine.

These engines required a special "Jap Spec" Oil when they first came out.

Something to watch on those engines was if you didn't run "Jap Spec oil" (over 3200 PPM calcium) they tended to shed flakes of metal from the mains and big end bearings, and these could end up in your oil and perhaps block that capillary oil feed tube to the turbo?

Back in the day owners in the know, would get the bearings shells swapped for new every 100,000 km's (Coz you could undo the engine mounts jack the engine up and drop the sump without removing the engine and change out the bearing shells from underneath. Coz it was a known issue, Toyota used to subsidize the price on this task if performed by them, to keep their reputation intact, for a period well outside the warranty if you asked nicely).

The thing is, oil co's phased out calcium levels in oil and replaced it with something else (boron? can't remember specifically) but the thing is, it burns off quickly at the sort of higher than normal oil temps that these 1HDT engines run at - the newer more modern oils don't seem to perform as well in the older 1HDT engines.

You can read about the bearings and oil issue at this link:-

http://www.lcool.org/technical/80_serie ... rings.html

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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by Shann Low » October 10th, 2016, 6:20 pm

More details.

Probably read thru this... about "high calcium Jap Spec Oils" specified for your engine.

http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/80big ... s-scam.htm
Mine was a Jap import. Some threads seem to think they were ok in Japan because the oil is different. That seems unlikely to me but any truth in it? Also some discussion saying that using high quality oil like synthetic prevents the problem?

---The oil sold in Japan typically has calcium based detergents in it at levels of 3000-4500+ppm (parts per million) this is a very detergent oil compared to a lot of oils formulated for american engines (700-2500+ppm) magnesium based detergents, magnesium based detergent is thermally unstable at normal working temps of a japanese diesel engine that is why it is not used in japanese OEM oils) as a side benefit extreme levels of calcium have a very strong bearing pacifying affect reducing the bearings susceptibility to chemical attack by its own oil which contributes to the onset of subsurface fatigue failures.
Synthetic oil per-se is not a fix (or prevention method) you want an oil with low or no magnesium and preferably in excess of 3000+ppm calcium based detergents the oils that I know of that meet the above requirements are:
Caltex Delo CXJ 15w40 (the J is for japanese) mineral oil,
Castrol J-Max 15w40 mineral oil,
Amsoil Marine oil 15w40 synthetic oil,
Amsoil series 3000 5w30 synthetic oil,
I know BP in Europe makes some nice high calcium synthetic diesel oils also but I don't know names or product codes.
My favorite of the above is the 5w30 amsoil but it is seriously expensive and unless you are running extended drains supported by routine oil analysis it is too expensive to drain every 5000km.

Cheers,
Craig.]
No one will tell you this stuff about the Jap Turbo Diesel engines.... and most manufacturers are replacing high calcium detergent oils suitable for use in Jap Spec T/diesels - with magnesium.

In short it's cheaper and works OK in the lower temp US made diesels thus making the oil more profitable to sell.

It's not much good in high temp Jap T/diesels is the problem!.

Unless you study tables of "virgin oil analysis" for whatever oil you use - you will never know if the manufacturer changes / re formulates their oil to move away from high calcium to magnesium in their add pack.

The first you will know is when your crank starts spinning bearings and throwing rods & by then it's too late!. ;)

Most 80 & 100 series Cruiser owners have no idea, it's getting harder and harder to find a Jap Spec oil suited to these engines.

Cheers

nilla60
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by nilla60 » October 13th, 2016, 7:18 pm

Interesting. I get a "forbidden" error when following the link. But what you've posted is interesting indeed. Good luck finding any specs that say what the level is.

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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by Peter Aawen » October 13th, 2016, 10:49 pm

^^ Same here... :(
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

Shann Low
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by Shann Low » October 14th, 2016, 2:31 am

Yeah it's an old link, I think back to the old LCOOL forums archives. But I copied the contents from a previous post here of mine that turned up in a google search on the topic.

The original post of mine still has the delaminated big end bearings photos etc.

BITOG Forums (Bob is the Oil Guy) has a post on there somewhere about virgin Oil Analysis tables put out by the Used Oil Analysis Labs to tell you what oils are Jap Spec and have the required calcium levels which is a bearing pacifier.

I recall reading once an article with photos about the major differences between the big slow revving US Manufactured diesels (which run cooler) and the Jap high RPM Diesels that run hotter and don't seem to like the more modern oils that contain way less calcium.

Principle difference was the height from piston crown to top of the top land groove.

The guts of the article (supported by pics of used pistons from both engine types) was that carbon deposits form in and clog up/gum up the gap above the top piston ring in the Jap Spec diesels when you use Oil specified for US diesels that are designed differently.

I think I found that article link in one of the threads on BITOG forum, but a quick search just then didn't turn it up easily.

Things have probably changed a bit in the last 10 years tho... it's really only relevant probably to cruisers etc that are 20 odd years old... so not really my problem to worry about these days.

If the young bucks driving those old dungars these days are keen enough they will search and find out the details & if not - well like I said, not my problem.

Once upon a time I'd a searched and found out all the guff - but these days I can't be phukked to be honest - most of the young bucks these days are from the short attention span theater group, who can't comprehend anything longer than a text message.

It's easier to just type "I don't know d!ck about diesels" and leave them to it to learn the hard way by trial and error - coz at the end of the day it's no skin off my nose if they screw up their truck engine... most of them that's the only way they will ever learn anything anyway.

I am all for the young ones learning by whichever method suits them best and trial and error seems to be the favored method these days - so I just leave them to it & watch on and smile to myself when they screw up.

Ya just gits old and ornery with the passing of the years. Lost of folks mistake me for someone who actually gives a damn.

I got past that a long while back.

nilla60
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by nilla60 » October 14th, 2016, 5:09 pm

Ah yes, I've spent a lot of time browsing Bob the Oil Guy's web site. 20 years? My 105 is a 2006 edition, but the 1HZ is (apart from the various updates) much the same as the original 1990 design. I'd not expect the design fundamentals (pressure, stroke &c) to have changed in terms of oil spec.

I have noticed that the Rimula 20 litre drums come from Singapore. Nothing on the 10 litre drums. No way of knowing if the label stands for the same standards it did 20 years ago, or is it just another brand to me milked like Sidchrome?

Shann Low
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by Shann Low » October 16th, 2016, 4:50 am

Short of paying for a virgin oil analysis there's probably no real other way to tell!
I have an old uncle was in the oil bidness from Melbourne and they are always looking at cheaper oil add pack constituents.
When I first started running Effie on the Delvac fully synthetic I was getting lousy results with my used oil analysis, so I sent the results off to Mobil here in Oz and blow me down within about a month they re-formulated Delvac One without making any major announcements about it!
That is one of the big problems - just coz you buy the same brand oil container off the shelf at your auto parts store doesn't necessarily mean you're getting the exact same oil formulation as the last batch you bought!
They can and do change it all the time... and they don't shout it from the roof tops.
Pretty much to know for sure, if you wish to do used oil analysis for e.g. to run extended oil change intervals, then really speaking you'd have to do a virgin oil test on every new batch of the same oil in case they changed it between batches.
Probably doesn't matter a lot on some of the newer designed vehicles BUT some of the older (80 & 100 series) 4.2 TDiesels, it was kind of critical that you stuck with the jap spec oils stated in the owners manuals.
The trouble with that is - even the dealers buy their oil in bulk for savings and they don't keep oil for every model of vehicle they ever sold - they just use whatever they have on hand that the service manager ordered.... so even with manufacturer servicing it doesn't actually mean you got jap spec oil in your oil change at the dealers. You got whatever they had in the bulk 200 litre drums out the back basically... and often even the quality of that is dictated strictly by price with cheapest being best (because it makes them more profits).

But getting into oil discussions is pointless because most oil threads just degenerate into "I bought Royal purple and used it 3 times and it never let me down, it's the greatest oil on earth". And the next guy says the same about Castrol GTX coz Sol said so on the TV advert and so it goes - idiots leading idiots mostly.
Even the used oil analysis game is rigged... I sent the exact same sample (split into halves) to 2 different laboratories and got back 2 different sets of results!
Oil industry people are the biggest snake oil salesmen in the world.
They would tell you their oil will cure genital herpes if they thought you were stupid enough to buy it based on that!
Look at the $ squillions made on Marvel Mystery oil for more than 50 years - and when they had to supply MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for safe transport and use - it turned out to be nothing but a mix of transmission oil and petrol! LOL
Squillions of $$ made for half a century for stuff just like Coca cola & KFC - never revealing the secret ingredients or 11 secret herbs and spices!

mydmax
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Re: Troubleshooting oil thirsty 1HD-T Motor

Unread post by mydmax » October 16th, 2016, 10:28 am

:p One of the LFC "Secret Herbs/Spices" is MSG. A relative mentioned that was one ingredient. People asked how he knew. He told them he is the buyer for the KFC chain with regards to MSG. He orders the stuff by the pallet.

The previous owner/franchisee of RACV service centre in my town always used ROYAL oil in everything. Bought it by the 44G drum. Why? It was the cheapest.
The business was very focussed on the profit to be had.

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