First start of the day issues

DangerPE
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Joined: November 1st, 2015, 2:51 pm

First start of the day issues

Unread post by DangerPE » April 12th, 2016, 11:36 am

Gday Guys,

So never had a problem up until a few days ago.
coincidence or not ....unsure, but it happened the first time when i the tank of on empty!

Kicking over first time is prooving very difficult. I can glow the plugs a few times and no difference. but it just wont kick for about a minute of cranking it.
Then all of a sudden its fine for the rest of the day.
Can even start up at say 6am... drive to work, leave for 8 hours and starts first pop??
once started the first time runs like a dream

Checked glow plugs, its getting the full 12V and they are all ok. glow red
Fuel seems fine..
it blows one puff of white smoke on start up.

any ideas??, really annoying, and gonna be worse during winter i think.
2002 Courier 2.5 turbo
2005 Patrol 4.2TD

Shann Low
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Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 3:14 am

Re: First start of the day issues

Unread post by Shann Low » April 12th, 2016, 12:10 pm

Summer diesel being used in winter? :confused:

Peter Aawen
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Re: First start of the day issues

Unread post by Peter Aawen » April 12th, 2016, 1:04 pm

Couple of ideas here, but basically just pondering out loud so that it might help you sort it.... (or give others ideas!) ;)

Like Shann suggested, trying to start on summer diesel once the o/night temps get down around Zero or less could make the fuel hard to suck up to the IP & even harder to start the engine, but have you had temps that low yet?? Anything below about 10 deg C might cause summer diesel to start congealing & turning waxy, but it's meant to flow well enough to keep working OK down to Zero....

While what you describe pretty much matches the symptoms of some glow plug or glow control/timer failure, your testing seems to suggest it (probably!?) isn't that/them.... but don't exclude them just because they glow - the difference between a glow plug 'glowing red' & a glow plug getting hot enough to help starting is a pretty fine line!! Do your 'glowing red' glow plugs actually glow a visible & vibrant (& almost hard to look at) bright cherry red?? Or do they just glow a dull red?? If they aren't glowing that vibrant bright cherry red that's beginning to look like it might soon be white, then they aren't working properly & that 'puff of white smoke' could be telling you that!! If that's the case, or if you aren't 'sure' then it might pay to replace the glow plugs anyway!

There again, the (coincidental?) fact that you've just run the tank to empty could suggest that you've now got a blocked or restricted fuel filter; or maybe your IP was getting a little tired & the latest low fuel episode (& therefore the low lubrication & low cooling the fuel provided to the IP while the tank was low - less than about 5-10 litres is not good!) was just too much for it, so now it takes a LOT of cranking before it can get enough fuel sucked up from the tank; or it takes a while to develop enough pressure to crack the injectors?!?

Try changing your fuel filter/s, & check for one of the tiny little gauze filters in the IP fuel inlet under the fuel inlet banjo bolt - if you've got one there, clean it in a solvent & blow it dry before putting it back in!! Check the return fuel flow from your IP as you try to start it for the first time one morning - poor flow that gets stronger after a minute or so suggests the IP is likely the problem as described above, altho it could still be something like the blocked/restricted filters as described; or maybe just a kinked/bent fuel lines restricting the flow from the tank; possibly even just a blocked/restricted breather on the tank?! (A Fully blocked breather probably wouldn't let the engine start, but a partial restriction might let it run once the IP/lift pump sucks hard enough to overcome the restriction)

Just straightening bent/kinked fuel lines isn't ever a great idea, replace them if you can - even fitting clear re-inforced fuel hose is better'n straightened 'bent metal fuel lines', metal lines will very likely rupture eventually if they've ever been bent enough to restrict the fuel flow, so just replace it now & save yourself some grief down track! The blocked/restricted fuel tank breather thing would probably show up as an inrush of air into the tank if you pop the filler cap after trying to start the engine for a bit, but do it before the engine starts & the suction pressure overcomes the restriction..... If you pop the cap, air rushes in, & the engine then starts almost immediately, then it's a good indicator that's your problem.... but it's still likely that your IP is getting a little tired & needs attention soon if not now!

If this tired IP thing is the case, you might be able to minimise the issue & start the engine a little easier for a shortish while by fitting a lift pump at the tank end of the fuel lines, but honestly, if you've got an IP with a built-in lift pump (like most diesels do) & adding a lift pump helps your diesel start &/or run, then it's clear that your IP NEEDS attention & the engine won't be running as well or as economically as it could! In fact, continuing to run a diesel that only works with the aid of an 'extra' lift pump might be doing more long term damage than you want to pay for - you'll almost always be better off to get the IP stripped fully & properly re-coed NOW rather than relying on a lift pump for anything more than an emergency 'just get me home' fix!!

Sooo, there's a few thoughts that might help, please tell us how you go. Good Luck
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

TLC60S
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Location: Londonderry, NSW

Re: First start of the day issues

Unread post by TLC60S » April 12th, 2016, 9:31 pm

It does sound like a glow plug issue I had once before on my 60 series.
The glow plugs were fine , it was a break in a piece that looked like bakerlite that is used so the buzz bar line doesn't earth out on the manifold . The break was causing it to earth resulting in not enough power getting to the glow plugs.

Also using a squirt of Aerostart into the air intake got it to fire up but don't use too much.

Cheers TLC60S

DangerPE
Here and there
Posts: 27
Joined: November 1st, 2015, 2:51 pm

Re: First start of the day issues

Unread post by DangerPE » April 12th, 2016, 10:26 pm

Peter Aawen wrote:
While what you describe pretty much matches the symptoms of some glow plug or glow control/timer failure, your testing seems to suggest it (probably!?) isn't that/them.... but don't exclude them just because they glow - the difference between a glow plug 'glowing red' & a glow plug getting hot enough to help starting is a pretty fine line!! Do your 'glowing red' glow plugs actually glow a visible & vibrant (& almost hard to look at) bright cherry red?? Or do they just glow a dull red?? If they aren't glowing that vibrant bright cherry red that's beginning to look like it might soon be white, then they aren't working properly & that 'puff of white smoke' could be telling you that!! If that's the case, or if you aren't 'sure' then it might pay to replace the glow plugs anyway!
well mate your bang on.
On this basis, and it being the cheapest option. i went and bought a new glow plug to test/compare. They are a hell of a lot brighter than the ones in it ( not the one i tested first).... weird coz they are only 4 months old.

ended up pulling all of them out and testing all of them.
one was super bright, like a new one
one was ok...dull red
but the other two pretty crap.

Then went and bought a new set, tested all of them. they were all perfect
threw them in and started first pop, no smoke. back to normal

thanks heaps for your advise.

on another note, how long should glow plugs last?..all my other diesels i didn't change them for years. ( patrols & rodeos)
what could cause the extreme wear of the plugs.
My glow timer continues even when the light goes out on the dash. Getting a full 12.5V which lasts about...20-30seconds. quite a while after the glow light (dash) goes off. Is this normal, would the timer be on for to long?

Cheers
Kaine
2002 Courier 2.5 turbo
2005 Patrol 4.2TD

Peter Aawen
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Re: First start of the day issues

Unread post by Peter Aawen » April 13th, 2016, 8:41 am

The glow timer thing is perfectly normal; in fact, there are vehicles &/or timers/temps out there where the glow plugs might stay activated for much longer - some vehicles &/or controllers have glow durations lasting multiple minutes, depending on the ambient & then coolant temps & how long the engine takes to warm up!! So that 20-30 seconds of glow is not long at all & is not likely to be your issue!!

However, re your glow plugs not lasting very long, that is most likely just a reflection of the quality of the plugs you've bought - and sadly, it's getting bloody hard to tell what's good & what's not, now that they almost always come from the same factories in China. Their quality depends very much on what the retailer has requested, the Chinese factories generally make stuff to the price requested, & the cheap stuff suffers in quality as a result. But be aware that some retailers order & buy cheap from O/seas producers, then sell expensive on the retail market!!

If you can track down German or European made Glow plugs, they tend to be of a better quality that usually lasts longer, and some of the Chinese made stuff really is of good quality, but it generally costs more & you can really only take the advice of the diesel tuners/parts re-sellers in your choice - and then keep receipts as well as scrupulous records of when you fitted the latest timers & how many kms the vehicle has done with them in; making sure that you demand a refund if they fail prematurely!! 3 months isn't good, but unless you can show conclusively that the glow plugs haven't lasted &/or were not 'fit for purpose' then you stand little chance of getting any replacements short of buying a new set! :(
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

DangerPE
Here and there
Posts: 27
Joined: November 1st, 2015, 2:51 pm

Re: First start of the day issues

Unread post by DangerPE » April 13th, 2016, 5:07 pm

thanks for the tips.
Ill see how long these ones last.

it actually runs better for the first few minutes as well, it was previous a bit rough for about a minute. Got a mechanic to look at it, he said it was the injector probably being sticky. advised to use injector cleaner.....

thanks for the help...been invaluable...
2002 Courier 2.5 turbo
2005 Patrol 4.2TD

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