Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

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DJR96
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 16th, 2013, 10:21 pm

The more we learn about what you've developed so far the more impressed I am. You seem to have it pretty well sorted out. Short of changing to a VGT turbo it's really only going to be fine tuning.

I wouldn't be worried about condensation in the inlet. There is far too greater volume going through carrying away water vapour to ever allow enough condensation liquid to ever be a risk. But no, the CO2 isn't really a viable option.....

Now if only my little 2L engined Hilux pulled half as well as yours............ :rolleyes:
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 21st, 2013, 6:56 pm

Update on the atomiser system...
Well, we hooked up the system with the atomiser spray as shown in the previous photo. Used the same hill test as usual.. The results were that there were no difference in the EGT's.. That is, the temps were the same as before the atomiser was connected.. So, then connected the atomiser to a switch on the gear stick and run the same test, but switching the pump on at the start of the climb. The EGT's climbed the same amount and evem slightly higher then without the atomiser..

This was confusing, so had another run at the hill with the atomiser switched on before the climb.. The EGT's were diffidently high using the atomiser then without.. Not by much, probably 10 or so degrees higher. But it did indicate that the atomiser was not going to bring the temps down as expected.. ?????

At this time, the atomiser was set up as per the rough sketch below..
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Puff

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 21st, 2013, 7:03 pm

So, spent most of yesterday afternoon at a friendly turbo establishment..

What we found was that the water droplets were clinging to the fins of the core. These were getting hot from contact with the core, and therefore, 1. The water droplets were absorbing the heat. 2. The air passing through the core was insulated from the cooling fins, AND then had the cool the water drops before it could cool the fins.. (if that all make sense)..

As per rough sketch below....
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 21st, 2013, 7:06 pm

So today we built a open cell foam 'filter' and fitted this into the intake duct, and changed the direction of the atomiser spray downwards to 'wet' the foam.. As per the sketch below..
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 21st, 2013, 7:26 pm

This resulted in a drop of the EGT's on the same test.. The amount of temp drop was about 10 degrees below that of not using the atomiser.. So the atomiser wetting the foam which in turn cooled the incoming air did work for a 10 degree drop in EGT's..
However, because of the restriction in the intake due to the foam, the EGT's while running down the highway (without the atomiser working), at 100Kph and at 80Kph were about 10 - 15 degrees higher then before the foam 'filter' was added..

End result at this time, is that the idea of an atomiser that uses minimal water has no real advantage.. The principal would probably work well if :
1. sufficient water was sprayed directly on the core. -- (the logistics of holding enough water for this would out way any advantage).
2. a high pressure pump and a misting spray may work, directed on the core.-- ( the cost would possibly out way any advantage).
3. a series of high pressure misting jets were directed into the intake air stream. (same as 2).

Another issue with using a foam (or what ever medium) as a air cooling medium is that being wet and subject to dust, dirt and other road debris, the cooling medium is going to block up very quickly..

So, back to the drawing board..

Will post the final EGT figures when the heat shields are all in place..
Cheers..
Puff

ymy-88u
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by ymy-88u » May 22nd, 2013, 6:26 am

id just fit that nozzle in the air intake,

water injection works to genuinely lower the egts and ive ran it on about 4 cars now over 7 years.
my 2h-t 75 series drinks 380ml/min and my 4.5 79 drinks 440ml/min, any less and it wasnt makin much difference, i had the intake and venturi of the 75 2 weeks ago and it looks like the intake has been port and polished from the steam cleaning effect it does,
ill be fitting my water 2 air cooler next week to it to get better gains and then bit more fuel
V8 79 Series (175rwkw) & HJ47 W2A intercooled & turbo (75rwkw) both methanol injected

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 22nd, 2013, 3:41 pm

ymy-88u
So, your talking about a water/methanol kit????

If not, what are you pressurising the water with ?? And what kind of fogging nozzle would you be using ??
Even so, at 380ml per minute, you need to have a large water storage container..

For example, if the water system, (for a better name), was set at 6psi and one drove from Brisbane to Tamworth. Considering the hills and even smaller climbs. How long would the water storage last ?? Take for example, the climb up Cunningham's Gap.. It is uphill from just after Aratula, gradually increasing and culminating in the climb up the gap.
So, even at a good speed, one can expect the boost to be over 6psi for at least 15 minutes. Therefor one would need around 7 liters for just that section..
Puff

dod28
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by dod28 » May 22nd, 2013, 4:01 pm

Gotta agree with you Brisbane Puff, 380ml per minute seems like a huge amount to me.
My ln106 with DTS turbo almost constantly sits on 10PSI @ 100kph, it even holds around 5PSI on moderate downhill slopes @ 100kph. So with a water system set at 6PSI I could reasonably expect to need about 4 hours worth of water for a run from Brisbane to Tamworth. 4 Hours @ 380ml per minute equalls 91.2 litres. On the same trip I would only use around 60 litres or about 166ml per minute of diesel.

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 22nd, 2013, 7:08 pm

dod28.... Your absolutely right.. Water cooling or water injection is not the way to go for various reasons..

I take it that you don't run an intercooler ?? It sounds like your boost is spot on..

The original intention of this post was to get information from others as the the difference they found in their EGT's before and after fitting the intercooler. So far, we have seen about two feed backs with figures..

So, what I can say is that fitting the intercooler as shown in the previous photos, I have a difference of between 40 and 50 degrees, depending in the ambient temperatures of the day. (I would imagine humidity would also play a part in that). So I know that the side draft system is quite effective from standing idling to high road speeds. Now, the interesting thing about all this is that we have cracked the fuel up by just over one full turn.

Before the intercooler, the fuel usage was between 10.1 and 10.5 liters per 100 km.
After the intercooler AND the fuel turned up, the fuel usage is between 9.8 and 10.1 liters per 100 km.
The aneroid setting hasn't been changed, and the fuel data has been checked twice..
The EGT's haven't changed from what I listed before.. and are very very acceptable without any need for the likes of an atomiser.

So, water is out,, next step,,,, is refrigerated air intake.. Don't laugh.. Started working on the theory..

Any input greatly appreciated.. Cheers..
Puff

dod28
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by dod28 » May 22nd, 2013, 9:06 pm

Brisbane Puff wrote: I take it that you don't run an intercooler ?? It sounds like your boost is spot on..

The original intention of this post was to get information from others as the the difference they found in their EGT's before and after fitting the intercooler. So far, we have seen about two feed backs with figures..
Umm yes I do run an intercooler, as far as I can see, so far I am the only one to give you any before and after EGT temp figures.

I'm guessing when you say refrigerated intake system, you mean some kind of powered system, not just using dry ice. My guess is that any power gains from such a system will be negated by the power required to run it, but let us know how you get on with it anyway.

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 22nd, 2013, 9:47 pm

dod28 ... My mistake, I apologise.. After I posted, I remembered that you gave me the data..

By refrigeration, I am thinking of a T off from the air con lines that run right past the cooler ducting.. My air is on most of the time anyway. Simply put, it would mean a second evaporator in the system. As air con works on a semi fixed differential of the ambient air temp. Have to get some figures on whether it would 1.Work and 2.Be worth the effort ..
Know a couple of refrigeration engineers and ask the questions..

As I said, the intercooler works well as it is.. Maybe it's just becoming a bit of an obsession.. Maybe got too much free time.. Need to get out more.. :crazy:
Puff

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 25th, 2013, 9:03 pm

dod28... Well, you were right... Refrigeration is not really possible.

Calculations on air flow figure out that the matrix, (evaporator) would have to have 4 times the surface area of the intercooler to work effectively. That means that it would have to be 4 times the thickness to fit under the intercooler core, or 4 times the size, or something in between. Either way, it aint gona fit... Also, the compressor would have to be much bigger than the original, which then needs more power, and the offshoot of that is the extra energy to turn it would generate a lot of extra heat in the engine cooling system.. At the end of the day, the theory works, the practical doesn't..

Sorry DJR96, can't think of any other innovations.

So, the heat shields have been fitted, (as seen in the photos below), but the temp gauge supplier has nil stock of what I ordered, so I can't supply differential temp figures at the moment..

As no one else seems to have any data, when I get the temp probes fitted, I will do a final post with the results.. All I can say is that at the moment the outgoing air is a lot colder then the incoming side of the intercooler.. The hottest I can get the EGT's to is about 380 degrees..

The K&N pod filter in the photos is only a temporary fit, and we are building a filter unit to be fitted on the drivers side of the engine bay using Unifilter elements.... The K&N will probably be changed to provide an inline particle filter...

The drink bottle at the back is a proviso catch can til we can fit a proper one once the new filter is in place...

Couple of strange things, as I mentioned before, even though the fuel is turned up, the usage has gone down by about half a liter per 100 k's. And since fitting the intercooler, the induction noise from the snorkel is lessened somewhat, (almost can have a conversation now :lol: )

Pretty happy with the cooler.. A nice close fit to the engine, so no turbo lag. Not subject to radiant heat from the engine.. Works really well at low road speeds. Nice and protected behind the support panel. And no worry about water ingestion..
Works for me...

So, that's it, unless some one has any suggestions.
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ymy-88u
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by ymy-88u » May 27th, 2013, 6:55 am

I run intercoolers, water meth injection setup on my:
2h w2a intercooled cruiser running 10 psi
V8TD 79 series cruiser running 19 psi

the injection turns on a full throttle.....you don't need it anywhere else as there is no extra fuel added anywhere else until you hit WOT.

the 2h runs 380ml, ive been on and off dyno 5 times to perfect it and trial all different sizes and that was the best with power gains and a reduction in egts, my v8 runs dual 250ml's one each/bank into the intake manifold.

the 2h runs a 6lt tank and lasts a month of daily driving, pulling car trailers and tray loads of firewood.
the v8 cruiser runs 4lt tank and lasts 2 months because it clearly has more power and torque and doesn't really need the water injection to be honest but I only fitted to keep the engine clean and healthy.

also my brothers 4.2 patrol runs a 380ml aswell, if you want it to spray sitting on 100 or certain boost levels maybe sell it and buy something with a big more go in It. as my 2h sits on around 5/8psi and v8 10psi at 100km so it would be a stupid idea to set it up like that really and you aren't gonna gain enymore like that....I setup a dmax like that and didn't change a thing
V8 79 Series (175rwkw) & HJ47 W2A intercooled & turbo (75rwkw) both methanol injected

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 27th, 2013, 11:14 pm

ymy-88u.... I fully understand what your saying.. And I appreciate what you have achieved. But, in my opinion, water/methanol injection can be great when things run sweet. But when (and if) things go wrong, they tend to go terribly wrong. Like to the first photo below... I just can't get past the mind set that water and diesel engines are not compatible..
Melt down 3_resize.jpg
BTW, that was a D4D.. $12,000.00 of damage..

With no intention of starting a war of words, I was a little taken back about your reference,
"if you want it to spray sitting on 100 or certain boost levels maybe sell it and buy something with a big more go in It."
I'm sure that you didn't mean it in any derogatory manner.

But, I feel that you may have completely missed the point of the whole exercise.... At the start of this post, (and other posts), I mentioned that what i wished to achieve was a small economical vehicle that is just a simple 'nuts and bolts' unit that will tow the camper trailer to where ever we wish to travel.. For example, Brisbane to Quilpie on $200.00.. With lockers front and back, it will go most places out west that we would want to go. And, if it did break, parts can be found in the nearest cocky's shed.
So, it's not all so much about the end result but rather the adventure of building the project.. Having spent much much more then the original vehicles value some may call me crazy.. Personally, I would rather think of it as eccentricity..

As for V8 and bigger, we also have whats in the second photo if we need to have more power..
P8020527_resize.JPG
As a couple of members on this forum can attest to, we have had some other vehicles over the last 10 years or so, that could be described as bigger...
Mack 1_resize.jpg
Mack 14_resize.jpg
Or best...
MVC-006F_resize.JPG
I haven't posted this to create any friction. It's just as you will see, all about the project, and achieving results that one sets..
Cheers, Puff..
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 30th, 2013, 9:31 pm

This is getting way off subject. But after receiving 3 or 4 PM's, I thought it would be a lot easier to just list the details of my answers to the PM's on here.. Lot easier typing it once then having to repeat it several times..

1. No.. The Mack in the photos is not an ex army unit..

This Mack is a RM 686 RS model with 14 inch double rail chassis where the army issue had/is 7 inch chassis rails.

We had two trucks, one short wheel base (the one in the photo) and a long wheel base which some may have seen on Fraser as we sold that one to a gentleman that had the store at Orchid Beach.

The one in the photo had a 320 Hp intercooled Mack engine.
A 10 speed Mack range change gearbox with a Kelsey Hayes constant mesh dual range transfer.
This gave a total of 20 forward gears and 10 reverse gears. (never got into top gear in reverse :lol: )

The rear diff's were 48,000Lb Mack's and the front was a 5.4 tonne Kelsey Hayes.
This gave constant 6 wheel drive with diff locks all round.

Twin steering boxes.. (one hydraulically driven from the other).

The truck was fitted with a 10 tonne hydraulic belly winch (with load limiter)so the cable could be run out front or back.
The crane was a 13 tonne Palfinger with R4 legs.

The wheels were specially made for super singles running Micheline Sahara tyres running nitrogen instead of air.
The wheel centers were made from 5/8 steel plate and a wheel weighed about 200Kg. (used the crane to move them)..

The cab was not a 'Flintstone' cab.. It was a reinforced R model cab with Super Liner trim (less carpet) and a 'Flintstone' style front. (but a bit longer)..

The truck tared in at 14 tonne, and highway speed was a constant 90KPH uphill and down hill..
Fuel use was 6Km per liter on the road. on a good day.. Bad day/off road maybe 2Km per liter..

They were primarily used for laying power cable cross country, but were hired out for carting/salvaging off road as seen in the photo. (That was on Stradbroke Island).

They were originally Petty Ray geophysical sysmic vibrosus units. Specially built by Mack trucks.

The base truck a common model used by many off road and mining companies overseas.

To finish off all the answers. Below is a photo of similar Mack trucks, but you will notice the raised bonnet. This was to fit a 600 Hp Caterpillar engine with a Allison auto gearbox..

The first Hummer in the front is the black one in the photo above..

Think this has covered all the questions.. Was a lot easier doing it this way..

Does any one want to ad to the original subject?? I am still very interested if some one has intercooler temp figures...
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