Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

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Brisbane Puff
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 14th, 2013, 12:53 am

thanks to all for the input.. This is what we have so far..

Engine: Total rebuild. The only thing from the original engine is the block, crank, top cover and the sump. Everything else is new. Genuine Toyota parts used except pistons, rings and con rods.
The 107 flywheel was replaced with a 106 lightened and balanced unit.
Turbo: Schwitzer with new core by MTQ.
Rebuilt injection pump with variable aneroid. (yes variable), set to start at 6 psi.
New injectors and injection lines.
Fuel = 10.1 ltrs/100K.
Turbo set at 8 PSI. Boost starts at 1500 RPM

Intercooler area is 38,000 sq mm. Intake is 42,000 sq mm.
Fan is supposed to move 1000 cu ft/min. (don't know if I believe that one, but it does suck hard). Fan is time delayed until engine start.

The intercooler is fitted with a water atomiser, with a pressure switch set at 6 psi,but at this time, we haven't worked out
the water tank logistics. So it does not come into the equation. At the moment, there are no heat shields fitted to the intercooler. In the process of fabricating those and will be fitted later this week. The shields will insulate the intercooler intake tank closer to the engine as seen in the photo.

Test road: a long climb of about 500 meters from a roundabout to a crest, then down hill, then an open motorway (100Kph limit). For those in Brisbane, it is the climb out of Springfield and along the Centenary Motorway towards Brisbane.
Daytime:
on the climb: 5th gear from around 30Kph.
Before intercooler: top of crest = 400 degrees at 115Kph. At 8 PSI.
After intercooler: top of crest = 360 degrees at 125 and climbing. At 8 PSI. (ps. Can't go harder as people with cameras are known to sit and the other side of the crest).
On Motorway at 100Kph with floating throttle.
Before intercooler: 260 degrees at 4 psi.
After intercooler: 210 degrees at 5 psi.

Night time:
on the climb: 5th gear from around 30Kph.
Before intercooler: top of crest = 390 degrees at 120kph
After intercooler: top of crest = 350 degrees at 125 and climbing.
On motorway at 100 Kph with floating throttle.
Before intercooler: 250 degrees at 4-5 psi
After intercooler: 200-210 degrees at 5 psi

daytime at 60kph on floating throttle.
Before intercooler: 210 degrees at 0 psi
After intercooler: less then 200 at 1 psi
the slightest movement on the pedal sees 2- 3 psi.

Spool up: 5th gear.
Before intercooler: spool up at 1500 rpm - 8 psi at 2800 rpm
After intercooler: spool up at 1400 rpm - 8 psi at 2400 rpm

As of tomorrow, the fuel will be opened up by 1/2 a turn. And we'll see how that goes.

Please feel free to comment..
Puff

DJR96
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 14th, 2013, 9:27 am

All seems pretty good, for a Hilux!

I take it you're not seeing any signs of overheating? ie. the temperature gauge never moves from around it's normal half way point.
If you do, well you can't ask much more of it.

The EGT's are all very safe and you have room to move here. Trying a bit more fuel is a good next step. As would bumping the turbo boost pressure a bit. But only try one thing at a time so you can see what effect one thing has on others. More fuel might only increase EGT and black smoke, in which case more boost is needed instead.

When you get to a point where either coolant temps start to move on long climbs or EGT gets beyond what you're comfortable with, you've reached the limitations of what you've got. And it's surprising how much heat a turbo can cope with, peak temperatures drop away very quickly once you get off the loud pedal. Turbos can handle continuous incoming exhaust temperatures of 700°C, which is around 500-550°C post turbo. Brief spikes above this won't kill it either.
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

94 TURBO HILUX
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by 94 TURBO HILUX » May 14th, 2013, 10:12 am

I'm not running much different to you. My engine has 25,000 on it, schwitzer turbo with 10,000 on it., 11psi and pump 1 1/2 turns. I don't have a rebuilt pump though, but injectors have 25,000 on them. My boost starts around 1500rpm as well

Very interesting results you have, itll be interesting how the water goes as well, ive always thought what it'll do. Weather it would be worth it or not. When I get back from the Hilux meet this weekend I'll have to run up the same hill, but it's a long drive from Narangba. So I guess I'll try and find a similar hill round here. . Can't give you egt's, but I can give you my coolant temps by degrees and speed/ acceleration results. I can also give you my spool up results to 11psi.

What diff gears are you running? I'm running 4;5's in a ln106 duel cab.

94 TURBO HILUX
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by 94 TURBO HILUX » May 14th, 2013, 10:15 am

With your temp gauge on the dash, I had both fitted at one stage and found that the dash gauge didn't move until my temps hit 100 deg, I tried a new sender, and it still done the same thing. You could actually smell my Hilux running hot before the gauge moved. From what I've been told its by design the gauge won't move until its near on boiling. Otherwise it would fluctuate constantly, confusing drivers. Makes sense how they designed it To do that.

ae86levin
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by ae86levin » May 14th, 2013, 12:42 pm

Puff - I realise you are quoting EGT's before and after intercooler install but for a minute I thought you were saying air temp measured before and after the cooler from the way it was written (obviously the temps are too high for that).
Have you been able to measure your air temps?

DJR96
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 14th, 2013, 2:54 pm

94 TURBO HILUX wrote:With your temp gauge on the dash, I had both fitted at one stage and found that the dash gauge didn't move until my temps hit 100 deg, I tried a new sender, and it still done the same thing. You could actually smell my Hilux running hot before the gauge moved. From what I've been told its by design the gauge won't move until its near on boiling. Otherwise it would fluctuate constantly, confusing drivers. Makes sense how they designed it To do that.
The thermostat should be controlling coolant flow to maintain a constant temperature. That's what it's there for! So there should be no need to design the temperature gauge to ignore fluctuations and falsely report what's happening. As you said, if it's already gotten too hot by the time it indicates anything different than normal, well, it's worse than useless!!

The gauge in my old 2L engined Hilux I thought was dodgy too. Cruising at highway speeds would see it rising above 2/3rds sometimes into the red. Turns out the thermostat was operating in reverse! The gauge was fine. $12 thermostat cost me a replacement engine from the wreckers........... :mad:
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

dod28
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by dod28 » May 14th, 2013, 3:13 pm

How does a thermostat operate in reverse??????

DJR96
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 14th, 2013, 3:41 pm

Beats me!
But it was closing when it got hot. Any other time it'd be fine because it would be open. Had me stumped for a time. And no, it couldn't be fitted in the wrong way around either. Maybe it was meant for some other engine despite being physically the same and just packaged for the 2L?
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

ae86levin
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by ae86levin » May 14th, 2013, 6:11 pm

This explains the temp gauge dead spot and how to 'fix' it for around $4. I have done it to mine and the needle moves around more now. Note it doesn't fluctuate wildly or anything - just uses the whole scale instead of sitting in one spot until it jumps into the red.

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/techsite/tempgauge.htm

94 TURBO HILUX
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by 94 TURBO HILUX » May 14th, 2013, 6:55 pm

you're right about the thermostat DJR, but unless you have a mechanical temp gauge, you wouldnt see how much your coolant temp fluctuates. expecially when my hilux climbs to 100deg reasonably easy up long hills, then drops just as quick. i had no idea until i put mine on. its so rediculous it does it, but like i said it makes a bit of sense why they do. one less distraction.

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by 94 TURBO HILUX » May 14th, 2013, 6:56 pm

my point exactly, the dead spot. :crazy: thanks ae86levin :drink:

Brisbane Puff
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 14th, 2013, 10:46 pm

Quick update guys... Screwed the fuel up today by half a turn.. First time fuel smoke is blowing out the exhaust (revving from idle, and loading it up.) Been a very busy day and so, haven't had much time to do intensive test. However, running around today, EGT''s are up by 10 degrees from the figures previously posted.. Haven't finished the heat shield nor addressed the atomiser yet, and probably would have time for a couple of days.. Will update as things progress. Drivability wise, the engine is much more tractable and responsive..

To ae86evin.. Sorry, I thought that I was making it clear that I was talking about EGT's and not compressor temps. I have ordered 3 electric temp gauges which should arrive in the next couple of days.. The temp gauges are battery powered and have a lead with a probe on the end. What I intend to do is to clamp one on the inlet side of the intercooler, another on the outlet of the cooler and the third on the manifold between the turbo and the cooler. I know that this will not be an exact reading of the true temps, but should give a good definition of the temp differentials. Again will post that date as it happens.

To DJR96.. As far as engine coolant temps go, all the coolant system and oil cooler is new, the original factory gauge sits a shade under half way. So far, it hasn't shifted from that position since we turn the fuel up. But early days so far, and we will see where that goes..
As far as the thermostat deciding to operate backwards. Sounds like a pinhole in the bulb in the thermostat...

To Hilux_Ryan.. The hole behind the headlight is way to small and obstructed to be effective.. As Peter Aawan stated earlier, sometimes it pays to think outside of the square..

Here a a couple of pics to make things clearer..

Cheers to all..
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Puff

Brisbane Puff
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 15th, 2013, 10:18 pm

Another quick update.. Ran the truck over the same area.. EGT's were between the same as before to 10 degrees hotter. Thought it may be the pyrometer, so took the one of the dyno and it read the same, so the gauge (digital) is reading correct.

The interesting thing is at lower speeds the EGT's are the same as before we cranked up the fuel.. I put that down to the fan doing its job.
To DJR96.. Yes, I suppose now would be the time to increase the boost pressure, but what I'm looking for is maximum low down torque to hold highway speeds towing a camper trailer. Higher pressures come with higher road/engine speeds.. the whole idea of building this truck is for absolute reliability, all the time, everywhere. I know some will question my sanity, but so far we have invested around $12000.00 in this little project. Not counting the purchase price.. And we haven't started to do things like attend to paint, or add other 'goodies'.
Its all about being able to jump in a go out west without a care, not have to worry about electrics, CRD/dirty fuel, and all the other modern problems. We still have the Discovery to cruise around habitation and keep the wife happy. And if I need to go fast once in a while, just have to break out the Camaro n go down to Harry's Diner for a hamburger.
I guess in a nut shell, it is becoming a bit of an obsession, and something to keep the brain active..Which is probably more to the point..

to 94 TURBO HILUX.. So, I forgot to add, yes it's running 4.5's. Your truck sounds well sorted out. Would like to see it, but we live at the other ends of the world.. :lol: Not too sure where there is a climb like this one out of Springfield Lakes, but is starts from a 30kph roundabout, through a shallow S bend and then its a long steady pull to the crest. Total of about 500 meters. My calculations work out to about 10% cooler under maximum loads, (40 -50 degrees cooler). I'm hoping that when we get the water atomiser working, it may pull another 10 degrees lower.

Will post more when the heat shields are fitted..
Cheers..
Puff

DJR96
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 16th, 2013, 9:01 am

Brisbane Puff wrote: The interesting thing is at lower speeds the EGT's are the same as before we cranked up the fuel.. I put that down to the fan doing its job.
To DJR96.. Yes, I suppose now would be the time to increase the boost pressure, but what I'm looking for is maximum low down torque to hold highway speeds towing a camper trailer. Higher pressures come with higher road/engine speeds.. the whole idea of building this truck is for absolute reliability, all the time, everywhere.
I like the ducting work for the intercooler. No wonder it is effective!
EGT's usually won't be an issue at lower engine speeds, it's only once it gets to operate at it's maximum boost pressure.
Of more concern is to ensure it's not blowing much black smoke. That's simply wasted fuel. This is where that variable aneroid is very worthwhile. You've got two adjustments for maximum fuel. The normal injector pump maximum which you would set for mid to high revs when it is on full boost pressure. And the aneroid to prevent over-fuelling when it's not at full boost. [At least that's how I think it goes]



High boost at low-mid rev range. Now we're getting into turbo choice.
I'm pretty sure you've got a conventional waste-gated turbo. It's air compressing output is determined by it's own size and relationship with the engine, and it's maximum boost pressure is controlled by the waste-gate. So as you know it'll have a fairly linear increase in boost pressure going from near zero at idle, maxing out mid revs and staying flat with further increases in revs. With this design arrangement, to get more boost pressure at low-mid revs (while the waste-gate is still closed) you would need to fit a smaller turbo (or at least change some components). But that might mean that it simply can't flow enough to maintain peak boost pressure higher in the rev range.

So to get around this compromise VGT turbo's were developed. These will develop more boost pressure lower in the rev range, even from just over idle, yet still be big enough to maintain maximum boost at full revs.
Although they are usually associated with complex electronically controlled engines, they can still be set-up to operate with a simple pressure actuator just like a waste-gated turbo.

I guess it's a bit late now for you to be changing turbo's, but if the limitations of the existing turbo doesn't fit with you.... Meanwhile, you can't expect too much at low revs and you'll just have to change down a gear. ;)
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

Brisbane Puff
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 16th, 2013, 9:33 pm

Hi DJR96.. To clarify what I meant by the low speed EGT's . I was referring to when driving at around 60- 80Kph (less then 200 degrees),and flattening the pedal to boost above 6PSI. One can feel the aneroid cut in and add fuel, but the the EGT's don't increase in response to the extra fuel. (Unless, of course, one continues to hold the throttle open). Running at 60 Kph with 1-2 or 3 PSI has EGT of less then 200.
As for the turbo, all I can say is that we have had a core change, and boost is in the rev range where I wanted it. Hence, the setting of 8 PSI..

As for intake, we are running a K&N pod filter at the moment. However, I don't consider this the final option as there is no particle separator.. This is another design issue currently being addressed. Possibly, a separator, then the pod, but we are running out of room.

Also played around with adding ice cubes to the intake ducting.. Didn't seem to change things more then when running the atomiser.. Also tried another experiment, (and it's an ABSOLUTE NO NO).. sprayed the core with CO2.. apart from nearly asphyxiating every one, it caused ice on the core.. To my way of thinking, ice on the outside means condensation on the inside..Not one of my best ideas..
Cheers..
Puff

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