Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

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Brisbane Puff
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Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 10th, 2013, 12:28 am

Hi people.. Serious question . Does any one have information on what they found was the difference in EGT temps before and after fitting an intercooler ??
Also if there was any noticable difference in spool speed or boost pressure ??
Doesn't matter what model, but 3L & 5L are the focus, but the more info the better..
Any and all info most welcome, as we are woking on a little project. Will post all when finished..
Ta....
Puff

ae86levin
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Re: Intercooler differential temperatures.

Unread post by ae86levin » May 10th, 2013, 8:42 am

I don't have any info on temps after an intercooler is installed (as I haven' done it yet) but when I was thinking about doing it I put a thermo couple into my inlet to measure the temp when on boost.
I was surprised to say the least - I saw temps peak at 90 - 100c when at full boost (11psi).
My intention was to test temps again after intercooling but I had other issues (rear main seal) take precedence on the intercooler install.

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Re: Intercooler differential temperatures.

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 10th, 2013, 7:33 pm

ae86levin.. Thanks for the reply.. Info duly noted.. Inlet temps were going to be my next question..
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 11th, 2013, 9:19 pm

Gee.. I thought that there would have been heaps of info by now.. Maybe I worded the question wrong ??
Maybe the photo below may start a conversation??
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by SuckSqueezeBangBlow » May 12th, 2013, 5:10 am

Your doing it wrong



Stick a water to air i/c if you dont want it out front imho
previous:-> 74 KE20 4AGTE, 04 RZN149R, 01 AE112R, 01 KR42R, 84 E30 318i, 67 MINI DELUXE
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DJR96
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 12th, 2013, 8:38 am

Excellent question and I hope people can provide some good data.

It is pretty hard to comprehend how much a turbo (or supercharger) can heat the air it is compressing. 90 degrees Celcius is not uncommon.
We 've all heard how an intercooler can improve performance, due to cooler air being more dense and carrying more oxygen for combustion. But the real benefit is increased reliability. If an engine is breathing air that is much closer to ambient it doesn't have to deal with so much heat. It can be the difference between the cooling system being able to cope or boiling over and failing. The engine oil is only effective up to a certain temperature, beyond which it won't work and things wear out much quicker and potentially seize - terminal engine failure. And some parts within an engine have to operate at very high temperatures to start with. Like valves, piston crowns and rings, and the exhaust system - especially a turbo. Higher inlet temperatures put them at a further disadvantage, reducing their life or even to failure.

Older engines that were originally designed for naturally aspirated simply weren't designed to cope with the extra thermal load a turbo can put on it. Which is why they're all only quite low boost, <12psi. Trying to increase boost with them it is especially important to intercool as well if you're trying to get any meaningful performance increase out of it.

Look at any modern engine now and it'll have a number of features designed to handle the thermal load. Oil coolers, oil jets under the pistons to cool them, and especially an intercooler of some sort. Best to remove as much heat as possible before it goes into an engine. Some engines can easily run 30-40psi or more boost pressure because they've been designed for such high thermal loads.

As for the above photo. Any intercooler is better than none at all unless it is so restrictive to inlet air flow that it negates any boost pressure made by the turbo. The biggest problem with this one is getting enough air flow to it to be effective. Obviously front mounted is preferred for this reason. But top mounted is OK too provided there is a bonnet scoop or some other means to duct lots of air through it. Tucked into the front corner of the engine bay is going to be rather sheltered. A bonnet scoop above would work, although it would look a bit weird there. But hey, if it works..........
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Peter Aawen » May 12th, 2013, 11:13 am

Re the 'hey if it works....' bit, it doesn't necessarily need to be stuck out in front to do that - as DJR mentioned, the problem is having enough air flow for the exchanger to be necessary, altho it really only needs some means of getting air flow to it, through it, and out the other end. We often seem to be a bit fixated on sticking heat exchangers like radiators and intercoolers etc out front of the car or on top of the engine, maybe even into the air flow a bit, when really an effective 'cold air intake' anywhere on the car, channelling sufficient volume of air to the heat exchanger, wherever it fits & wherever that may be, should work well - and isn't such an uncommon idea when you think about it!

Have you had a close look at any V8 Supercars lately?? Orright, so V8 Supercars might not be too close to what we generally run as 4WD's, but check out the various lengths of ducting they have running around the vehicle to cool things like brakes, engine oil, diffs, transmissions, and even the driver for that matter! And maybe also check out the big name comp vehicles that run in events like the Dakar and Baja races - there are quite a few of those machines out there that have their main engine cooling systems as well as intercoolers, coolers for engine oil, transmission fluid, diffs, etc, all running remote or at least 'oddly positioned' heat exchangers wherever they managed to fit them, often with ducting to either guide or bring the air some distance to the exchanger and sometimes they also have ducting to release the resultant air flow out into a certain spot on the vehicle skin to improve the aerodynamics or some other feature of the vehicle as well (gotta remember to cater for getting all the air away too).

So a sheltered spot like that might not have too much air flow in its own right, but a cold air intake somewhere and an outlet on the other side of that heat exchanger may well work as well as or possibly even better than a conventional front or top mount intercooler, especially if you consider the fact that any ducting adds an opportunity to direct some extra cooling methods into the air flow - look at the ice trays on top of intercoolers or in front of the air intakes that are sometimes used on drag cars etc; and then there's all sorts of misting devices that can help as well. The mind boggles at what can be done to help!!

You don't hafta be restrained by 'conventional thinking' with stuff like this, just so long as you address the need to get air flow to pass over the heat exchanger to let it function, and don't forget the need to get that air flow out & away in a manner that doesn't destroy the air flow for any other cooling system or heat exchanger. Even just the air flow past a vehicle component might be helping cool that component - stuffing around with the designed air flow path thru a radiator out front and then out under the vehicle may well mean you increase the temps in your transmission or transfer case and even the shockers &/or diff!! I've seen shockers die rapidly due to one of those wide stone guards across the rear of a tow vehicle limiting the air flow under the vehicle and out the back, over-cooked shocks being the result.

So it does pay to think carefully about these things, but that doesn't always mean that you can only do what someone else has done successfully before, does it DJR! :D
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Hilux_Ryan » May 12th, 2013, 1:45 pm

Agree with Peter, that front corner mounted cooler doenst look like it would work very well, but from memory there is a big hole in the rad support behind the headlight, so building some simple boxing in around the bottom of the cooler to the inner guard so air from behind the headlight has nowhere else to go, then sealing to the underside of the bonnet and adding a vent should help get quite a bit of flow out of it.

Notice old XR6/8 'cat scratch' bonnet vents and early WRX vents are both made to extract the hot air from the engine bay, not try and scoop more air in. Also things like the Mitsubishi EVO Lancers and the old GT-Four Celicas also had a big hole in the bonnet, with a raised leading edge designed to cause a low pressure area over the vent and suck as much hot air out as possible.
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 12th, 2013, 5:28 pm

Peter Aawen wrote:So it does pay to think carefully about these things, but that doesn't always mean that you can only do what someone else has done successfully before, does it DJR! :D
Too right! :D

One might consider me to be the epitome of just that. ;)
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

Brisbane Puff
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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Brisbane Puff » May 12th, 2013, 8:27 pm

SuckSqueezeBangBlow... Always open to ideas and comments.. So, what do you think I'm doing wrong???

For what it's worth, my ideas on water to air coolers amount to "water and Diesel engines don't mix".. Your water to air cooler is only as good as the weakest weld. Maybe ok on the road, but take into consideration vibrations from corrugated roads. Shock from that off road trip along the rocky track.. Ect Ect. Maybe that is a statement to the extreme, but, at the end of the day, one egg cup of water ingested equals a long walk home. Second to that, it is another system that has to be maintained, along with some place near the front for the coolant radiator. The fact that the coolant pump may stop will not necessarily stop your vehicle, but in theory, you would have to watch your engine heat, (presuming that you have turned your fuel up) until you can fix the system. remember that hot water rises, so the hottest spot in your water to air system is going to be directly at the heat exchanger if it's mounted high

As for top mount coolers, one has to ask just how efficient they really are?? Given that they are mounted in close vicinity to the engine, just how much do they become a heat sink and therefore, just how much do they cool the compressor air ?? With out a fan, they certainly don't have any effect at low vehicle speeds. Manufactures stick them there cause it's easy to manufacture. Sticking them out the front runs the risk of turbo lag.. All driven by the dollar. That, in reason is why you now see variable geometry turbo's to compensate. Just more to go wrong... (so, now I'll step down from the soap box.)...

As DJR96 stated, too small a cooler and you create restriction, but too big a cooler means that the turbo has to fill the area before it can start to compress the air. So, getting the right size cooler is very important along with everything else. And BTW, this engine has been fitted with extra squirters..

In closing, everything the Peter Aawen stated is exactly correct. Sometimes it helps to think outside of the square.. Thanks for your comments Peter, and DJR96..

And, at the end of all that, has anyone got some temp differential figures they would like to share??
Puff

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by 94 TURBO HILUX » May 12th, 2013, 9:38 pm

I havnt got any temp figures to share but I do have a top mount on my 2.8 ln106. It's got a denco turbo kit, 3" exhaust,11psi. And a eBay intercooler. It measures 375x160x75. Not very big I know, but I wasn't having any issues with how my car ran other than overheating on long climbs on the highway. I fitted the cooler and a bonnet scoop that perfectly matches my cooler, sealed together with what you could call a door seal from Clark rubber. On the colder days or at night in general, it flies. Real torque'y. Lots of bottom end and pulls all the way into 4000rpm. On the days that are 30deg + , the cooler has little effect. The car is not really pulling as hard. Doesn't like being driven up a range or any real mountain climb longer than 40 sec. My coolant temps will hit 100deg, so I'll back off it. But in low range my car has never got hot and it still doesn't with the cooler. No real effect at all with it in low range, unless at night.

In general ,around town driving it has helped the acceleration. On the highway, it cruises at 100 pretty easily, and still accelerates.

I'm considering a oil cooler to help with temps. I've already fitted a oversized alloy radiator, high flow 88deg thermo, aftermarket clutch fan and a aftermarket 5L fan(8 fins).

Ideally a water to air is and always will be the best option for the coolest intake temps. Something I've considerd numerous times.

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by Peter Aawen » May 12th, 2013, 10:59 pm

94 turbo, if your engine is overheating at hwy speeds like that & returning to OK temps as soon as you button off or crest the hill, there is a very good chance that you've simply got too much fuel wound on at the pump and your EGT is climbing as the revs & boost drops off, leaving your engine over-fuelling so that it 'over-heats'; and the major indicator of that being the issue is the longish hwy speed load on the engine, ie 40 secs or so pushing the temp up and yet when you back off a tad or change down, the temp drops almost immediately! Wind the fuel back a bit and I'm pretty sure your EGT's won't climb so much and the resultant high engine heat won't push the coolant temp up quite so much too!

All those other things will probably have brought the cooling system up to scratch and may even have some minor effect on the overall problem, and fitting the intercooler would have resolved that particular issue if the fuel hadn't been wound up even more searching for more power, which effectively just moved the issue a bit higher up the scale. This is a common problem with engines like yours and it is usually easily resolved, but many people don't realise how damaging those high EGT's and heating issues that you describe are to your engine, so they put up with it or maybe spend a lot of dollars searching for a cooling system or intercooler solution that is really unnecessary as the answer is so simple! Wind the fuel back, usually it just needs a tiny adjustment down and problem solved! ;)
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by DJR96 » May 13th, 2013, 8:44 am

94 TURBO HILUX wrote:I'm considering a oil cooler to help with temps. I've already fitted a oversized alloy radiator, high flow 88deg thermo, aftermarket clutch fan and a aftermarket 5L fan(8 fins).
Sounds like a pretty well sorted package. Have you got a shroud between the radiator and fan/s? They're actually pretty important and very effective.

It would be interesting to see some gauges on EGT, inlet and coolant temps (and oil) and see how they all interact with one another.

But I think Peter is right here. You've simply found the limitations of the cooling system. You're aware of it and drive it accordingly.
Cheers, Dave.
RCV Supertourer build:- [url]http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36370[/url]

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by 94 TURBO HILUX » May 13th, 2013, 10:19 am

Yeah thanks Peter. I had it tuned about 10-15000ks ago and he told me it would never overheat. I believe it's turned up a turn and a half. I havnt really thought about my egt temps causing my problems, having it tuned by this bloke I guess it just never crossed my mind. I drove it into him and said it overheats on climbs, fix it. . I havnt got a egt gauge either so I couldn't even tell you my temps.

It has got a fan shroud too, it pulls a fair bit of air just at idle, a piece of paper sticks to my grill, when you rev it, it sound like a industrial fan.

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Re: Any change in EGT temps after you fitted an Intercooler?

Unread post by dod28 » May 13th, 2013, 5:01 pm

I've got an LN106 with DTS turbo and have fitted a top mount off an 05 D4D hilux. I've had the intercooler on for about 20,000K's now so a bit hard to remember exactly how much the EGT temps dropped.
However I do remember, on one hill just up the road my temps would always reach 500 unless I pedalled off a bit. Since fitting the cooler the temp will now range from 400-500 depending on weather conditions without ever having to back off now.
If I had to try and put a number on it, at a guess I'd say overall about a 10% decrease in EGT temps.

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