2LT injector pump internal timing?

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double diffa
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2LT injector pump internal timing?

Unread post by double diffa » November 7th, 2007, 10:03 am

Here's one for the diesel fitters, I fitted 2LT motor, to my 84 4runner, to replace the 2L , I have been useing the 2L injector pump with great success, but deceided to fit a 2LT pump with the anaroid unit (boost compensator) on top, to try to get a bit better fuel economy, and less smoke below boost.
I had the pump checked out by a diesel shop, and caliberated to the factory specs, fitted it up timed correctly ( I'm an experienced mechanic) but the power is way down.
After a couple of months of fiddleing, I have come to the conclusion that the pump is mistimed internaly, as I know better than to pull an injector pump apart, and expect it to run again, my question is...
Is it possible to time a 2LT pump wrong internaly.
I have had the pump off and on at least twice in this time, and each time when I refit my 2L pump the power comes back.
It feel to me like retarded pump timing, but the belt marks are all correct.
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Unread post by Turbotojo » November 7th, 2007, 10:10 am

The timing can be adjusted by moving the pump on its axis while fitted but you need the device or gauge to check the right start of delivery or spill ting like on an inline pump. The marks that you have to line up are only a guide although they are usually spot on.
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Unread post by double diffa » November 7th, 2007, 1:11 pm

OM617isbest wrote:The timing can be adjusted by moving the pump on its axis while fitted but you need the device or gauge to check the right start of delivery or spill ting like on an inline pump. The marks that you have to line up are only a guide although they are usually spot on.
Yer, I tried all of the obvious stuff, the only way I could drive it was to have the pump fully advanced, against the inlet manifold.
This improved it quite a bit, which is what makes me think it's retarded inside the pump, if that's possible.
Thanks for your input, keep them coming :)
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Unread post by Turbotojo » November 7th, 2007, 1:31 pm

If thats the case then you could try another pump to see if it happens again or get your pump checked again. Get your injectors pressure tested as low pressure would mean that the fuel isn't atomised properly and it won't burn efficiantly. If the pump timing was not correct then you would notice other things aswell like seriously bad vibrations and smoke.
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Unread post by Turbotojo » November 7th, 2007, 1:36 pm

There is a special tool (timer measuring device, Denso No. 95095-10220) that goes in under a side cover on the pump and you need a dial gauge to set the pump timing properly.
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Unread post by HDJ105 » November 7th, 2007, 3:40 pm

double diffa wrote:Yer, I tried all of the obvious stuff, the only way I could drive it was to have the pump fully advanced, against the inlet manifold.
This improved it quite a bit, which is what makes me think it's retarded inside the pump, if that's possible.
Thanks for your input, keep them coming :)

I think you should take it back to the diesel shop that calibrated it for you, and have them check the timing advance. Maybe the timer piston is sticking?

Are you sure the fuelling / aneroid is set correctly, as the off or low boost performance will be down compared to the old pump, especially if it was making plenty of smoke before?
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Unread post by double diffa » November 7th, 2007, 3:51 pm

OM617isbest wrote:Get your injectors pressure tested as low pressure would mean that the fuel isn't atomised properly and it won't burn efficiantly. If the pump timing was not correct then you would notice other things aswell like seriously bad vibrations and smoke.
Ok, thanks for that, I wasn't aware there would be vibration, but I tried a set of 2LT injectors, because the diesel shop that calibrated the pump said it could be that the 2LT pump might not like the 2L injectors.
So I was lucky enought to borrow a set from a mate who has just had his done up, but it mad no difference.
I have my 2L pump set so the pyro reads 500 degrees at 2800 rpm, and full throttle, it never goes over 500, regardless of how long the hill, or how heave the trailer.
I had a leak in the fuel shut off solanoide, yesterday, and didn't know if I could repair it without removing the pump.
That's what got me thinking, if I had to remove the old faithfull 2L pump, then I might as well refit the 2LT pump, if I could cure the gutless problem.
Both pumps run 500 degrees at full throttle and 2800 rpm up a big hill.
I only concidered the 2LT pump again because of the aneroide unit, but it probably not worth the headachs.
It's just a shame I paid $500 for a pump that doesen't work.
I managed to replace the shut off valve by removing the top of the pump in place, a bit fiddley but it's working fine now, no leaks.
Maybe I should put the spare pump back in the shed where it's been for the last two years.
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Unread post by double diffa » November 7th, 2007, 3:58 pm

HDJ105 wrote:I think you should take it back to the diesel shop that calibrated it for you, and have them check the timing advance. Maybe the timer piston is sticking?

Are you sure the fuelling / aneroid is set correctly, as the off or low boost performance will be down compared to the old pump, especially if it was making plenty of smoke before?
No, they sweare it advancing and fueling correctly.
I would take it somewhere else, but it's already cost me $200 to adjust it.
Also, it's the over all performance as well, not just below boost.
The difference between the two pumps is such that with my current pump, I can go over a certain hill at 50kmh in fourth where I have to go back to second with the 2LT pump.
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Unread post by HDJ105 » November 8th, 2007, 6:42 am

double diffa wrote:No, they sweare it advancing and fueling correctly.
I would take it somewhere else, but it's already cost me $200 to adjust it.
Also, it's the over all performance as well, not just below boost.
The difference between the two pumps is such that with my current pump, I can go over a certain hill at 50kmh in fourth where I have to go back to second with the 2LT pump.

I understand your pain, perhaps the internal timing advance is set for the 2LT as well, and the 2L runs a vastly difference advance map?

The difference in performance is quite plainly obvious as you state, I find it hard to believe that the fuel shop can't get it closer than that, although many will set things up strictly (and only) by the book (manufacturers specs) and that's that, as they don't appreciate the "hybrid" nature of your engine.

As the EGT's are the same, and assuming the boost is the same, but the performance is down it does sound like the timing is retarded. It's a pity it would be such a big job to advance the injection pump drive gear a tooth. Or is the injection pump belt driven like the 2LII and 3L, etc?

Perhaps as a last option you could get the shop to fit the aneroid to your 2L pump instead?
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Unread post by double diffa » November 8th, 2007, 9:02 am

HDJ105 wrote:I understand your pain, perhaps the internal timing advance is set for the 2LT as well, and the 2L runs a vastly difference advance map?

The difference in performance is quite plainly obvious as you state, I find it hard to believe that the fuel shop can't get it closer than that, although many will set things up strictly (and only) by the book (manufacturers specs) and that's that, as they don't appreciate the "hybrid" nature of your engine.

As the EGT's are the same, and assuming the boost is the same, but the performance is down it does sound like the timing is retarded. It's a pity it would be such a big job to advance the injection pump drive gear a tooth. Or is the injection pump belt driven like the 2LII and 3L, etc?

Perhaps as a last option you could get the shop to fit the aneroid to your 2L pump instead?
Yeh, I suspect its something internal that the test bench can't pick up, these guys are, as you say, "by the book".
I asked how the 2Lt injectors could make a difference when the 2L injectors were doing fine at the same fuel volume EG: full throttle, and he said, "because the book says they are different," he didn't know why.

I don't think the timing issue would show up on the test bench, and they would only be able to tell if the pump is advancing, and not when its firing, yes?
I think I need to check it on the truck , as you say, and check the spill timing.
The motor is not realy a hybrid, its a factory 2LTHE, from which I have removed the electric pump, and substituted a mechanical one, everything, including the turbo, and boost, are stock.
So the 2LT pump, set at standard factory settings, should be rite at home

I agree, if I ever have to change pumps again, I will refit the 2LT pump with the timing advanced 1 tooth on the belt, and then hopefully be able to adjust it enough by rotating it on the engine block.
It's just such a pain of a job.

At this stage I don't think it's worth fitting the aneroide to my 2L pump, which I am still useing, the expence wouldn't outweigh the minor fuel saving, me thinks.
If I can find out what's wrong with the 2LT pump then I will have a spare that I can just bolt on myself, if my current pump gets a gut full of bio, and starts to leak.
It seams to me like someone has had the pump apart and mistimed something internaly, but if this comes with noticable vibration, then I'm out.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate any suggestions, It's got me buggared.
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Unread post by Turbotojo » November 8th, 2007, 9:02 am

Are you using 2L injectors in a 2L-T motor? I think you should start from scratch. What condition is the timing belt in? They can stretch as you would know.

1. Take the pump to another shop and get it checked again and do the injectors while you are there or buy the exchange ones off Ebay.You only need new nozzles. There is a drive gear in the pump held together by rubber inserts which drives the governor.

2.Check your fuel lines and replace filter. The 2L-T pump might not be getting enough fuel because of the fuel compensator.

3.Check the vacuum system which activates the compensator or HAC as it is known by Toyota. Some times oil can get in there and stuff up the rubber diaphram or it could be cracked from old age.

4.Replace the timing belt and while you are at it the water pump ( $45-$50) aswell. Check all the timing marks and take off the top cover to make sure that the cam timing is correct at TDC.

5. check the waste gate actuation on the turbo and maybe install a boost gauge.

Put it back together. Maybe do a compression test just to be safe.

Injector nozzles cost about $30-$40 each or cheaper if you can get trade price. A belt kit is about $100-$180. The Gates timing belt kit number is VKMA91122S. It's not the same as a 3L belt. I wouldn't use any dayco branded parts as they seem to be inferior or of dubious quality.

That is what I would do if any of that hasn't been done before. I recently bought a used reco pump for my 2L-TE off Ebay for $200. Replaced timing belt and water pump. Everthing timed up perfectly and it goes pretty good. There is no reason why yours shouldn't work.
I don't know if you are keen to try this. If not just leave the 2L pump on and keep driving.
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Unread post by Turbotojo » November 8th, 2007, 9:08 am

I didn't know it is 2L-TE. Different motors run at different compression ratios and if you don't have the injector set at the right pressure then the fuel won't burn properly.
The start of injection might be different on a 2L-TE than just a plain 2L-T or 2L. You would have to get that sorted out. Did you tell the shop fellas what motor you have? The specs have to be spot on or it won't work properly. It's not just a case of bolt on whatever pump you have as each one is different and only designed for a certain motor unless it is set up to suit. Theres your problem.
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Unread post by Turbotojo » November 8th, 2007, 9:25 am

The 2L, 2L-T, 3L and 5L all have different plunger strokes. That is the timing piston which can be adjusted in the car, better done by some that knows how. The electronic motors don't have this.
Thats your problem. The pump is fine, just your timing is out. Take your car in and tell them to set the timing.
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Unread post by double diffa » November 8th, 2007, 9:59 am

OM617isbest wrote:I didn't know it is 2L-TE. Different motors run at different compression ratios and if you don't have the injector set at the right pressure then the fuel won't burn properly.
The start of injection might be different on a 2L-TE than just a plain 2L-T or 2L. You would have to get that sorted out. Did you tell the shop fellas what motor you have? The specs have to be spot on or it won't work properly. It's not just a case of bolt on whatever pump you have as each one is different and only designed for a certain motor unless it is set up to suit. Theres your problem.
Yep, tried new 2LT injectors, motor has only done 9,000km since I did a full rebuild, belts, etc, valve timing is correct.
It runs perfectly with the 2L pump, which, by my understanding, would be supplying the same amount of fuel at full throttle, as the 2Lt with the HAC in order to be running at the same pyro reading at full throttle.
The 2L pump is timed up on the standard marks and runs fine.
I gave the shop all of the info before they calibrated the pump.
The 2Lt injectors I borrowed made no difference, and since I had only recently had my 2L injectors done up, I am useing them.
I even tried the 2LTHE injectors out of desperation, no difference.
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Unread post by double diffa » November 8th, 2007, 10:36 am

OM617isbest wrote:The 2L, 2L-T, 3L and 5L all have different plunger strokes. That is the timing piston which can be adjusted in the car, better done by some that knows how. The electronic motors don't have this.
Thats your problem. The pump is fine, just your timing is out. Take your car in and tell them to set the timing.
We tried the adjustment in the car, it had to run full advance, up against the inlet manifold, or it was even slower.
I was wondering weather toyota made two different pullies with the keyway cut in a different spot, when I change pumps I use the same pulley.?

So what you are saying is that the 2L pump must be closer to the timing specs of the 2LTHE than the 2LT pump is?
because the 2L pump runs fine on the standard marks.
Not critersizeing, just curious, that's why I'm asking the experts.
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