Mud Map 2

Getting un-lost is half the fun
Neat 60
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by Neat 60 » May 13th, 2013, 9:00 am

boobook wrote:Here are a few more errors in the Openstreetmaps and the mudmap site to update.

The Upper Dargo area has many errors.
In an area of about 80square km about 1/3 of the tracks are missing or wrong. It is simply not a reliable map for safe 4wding. I hope you have a team of a few hundred people full time on the road. I found these easily as I know the areas.

Check them with a reliable map.
Ive noticed the above also.

Not only are some tracks missing, the 250K Vic map shows the 4wd tracks ie. ----- with no names on them :purplex: . The Vector Map - Mud Map only shows main roads.

Ive been a paper map man since I started 4wding with the plan to go digital eventually. What I like about paper maps, in particuarly Rooftops for example, have track conditions at the time of when it was printed. Comments such as, steep, v-steep but good surface, rocky, graded 2006, impassible in the wet and so on and so on make it a great map to plan your trip or to change your plans mid trip according to weather and track conditions.

Overall im pretty happy with the app but some more detail would make it better. Like Boobok said, the VHC can be a dangerous place to the inexprienced 4wder and without the correct info could get someone into trouble.

MUDmap
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by MUDmap » May 23rd, 2013, 11:45 am

THEMAP, which is made from OpenStreetMap data does have some data missing, however in regions where data is good, it shows more detail than anything else on the market.

One of the advantages of using OpenStreetMap is that anyone can contribute and improve the map data. After all, many hands make light work. To help the massive task of improving data, we have launched the Mud Map project. The aim of this project is to encourage 4WD enthusiasts to help map out Australia. By contributing, anyone can make difference and we hope to have more and more members of the 4WD community getting involved.

We completely agree that track conditions and other notes are very useful, these are all features that are on our road map, and we hope to make the best platform for the 4WD community to share such info.

One of the great features of Mud Map 2, is that you can use maps from any brand. Rooftop maps are fantastic for the High Country, and if you have access to the digital maps, you can import and use them in Mud Map 2. Having this ability means there are no trade offs, you have the ability to use your preferred maps. It's also important to recognise that no 1 brand of maps is "best" everywhere, so having the flexibility to add maps from any brand is a big win. If you have access to Rooftops, have you tried importing them into Mud Map 2 yet?
Powerful 4WD Navigation apps & maps | Mud Map 2 for iPhone & iPad | Mud Map Android app | www.mud-maps.com

boobook
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by boobook » May 23rd, 2013, 12:13 pm

MUDmap wrote:THEMAP, which is made from OpenStreetMap data does have some data missing, however in regions where data is good, it shows more detail than anything else on the market.

SNIP
But that's the issue Mudmap.

It could be good, or it could be totally wrong, in the High country its not some trivial data missing, it' up to 30% or more inaccurate. But who would know? If you need a map for a certain area, then chances are that you don't know the area. Otherwise why do you need a map. The data in this project is free, and worth every last cent!

I do see that this project has use in building the accuracy of open map which currently suffers from bad errors in remote locations, but my point has been that you should clearly warn people that the purpose of them using the map is so they can help build an accurate map for later use by others, it should not be used for navigating, especially in remote areas.

MUDmap
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by MUDmap » May 23rd, 2013, 1:23 pm

boobook wrote:Here are a few more errors in the Openstreetmaps and the mudmap site to update.
.....
Quick update, as of today, all the missing tracks mentioned have been added by the community. The next free update to THEMAP will include all these improvements.

Thanks to Boobook again for highlighting these issues, it really helps when the community gets involved. I'm sure a person of your experience can identify other issues, and you are more than welcome to post them up to help the mapping efforts.
Powerful 4WD Navigation apps & maps | Mud Map 2 for iPhone & iPad | Mud Map Android app | www.mud-maps.com

boobook
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by boobook » May 23rd, 2013, 3:40 pm

Thanks but no thanks Mudmap. Those 2 areas cover about 3% of the high country and about 0.000001% of Australia. I'm not really interested in mapping the other 97% of the high country for free. Hema have several teams doing that full time.

I'd rather buy a map that is correct than travel all over the country side correcting free online maps that I would never dare use, and that you use to sell your products if it's all the same to you.
:-)

boobook
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by boobook » May 24th, 2013, 2:47 pm

OK Mudmap, despite my post above, here are a few more easy ones.

1)The Caledonia River is missing, it joins the Macaliater here -37.46109, 146.55465 and the east branch starts near -37.30763, 146.75191 and the west branch starts near -37.28338, 146.69895 This is an important river near Butcher track etc.
2)Shaw creek just stops, it should join the Caledonia about -37.44203, 146.61158 This is a great trout stream and in one of the most beautiful valleys in the whole high country. ( Oh, actually maybe leave this one out :purplex: )
3)Open map shows the Wonnangatta river heading south here -37.33733, 146.91775 but actually it heads North, the river referred to, and south from here is the Moroka. Also it is shown as starting and stopping with gaps in the river on the way from it's head waters.
4)The map shows Mt Larrit and Mt McAdam about here -37.32199, 146.93309 at Wonnangattta but doesn't show the larger and more important for navigation out of the valley Mt Von Guerard -37.29427, 146.97195, Mt Hart ( and Helicopter pad) -37.25491, 146.98358, and Mt Cynthia -37.33659, 147.00710.
5)Blue Rag range track is shown as stopping here -37.11381, 147.04089 but it actually continues another 6km down to the Wongungarra river about here -37.15685, 147.02404
6)The entire Wongungarra River is missing for about 45km from where Crooked River joins it about here -37.35624, 147.07429 to it's headwaters up near Hotham about -37.02656, 147.07682 and Selwyn Creek near Mt Selwyn -37.05243, 146.92802. Maybe that's good - less fishermen on the river.

Most of these are rivers but pretty important navigation aids and reasonably important if you are looking to go fishing.
That's 4% down.

I know, give me a mudmap and all the maps and I'll do some more :lol: When you do the Android version of course....

duck8175
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by duck8175 » May 27th, 2013, 8:42 pm

Ok can we dumb this down a bit for the rest of us general customers/users please? I have Mudmap HD and i'm planing to use it on a 4 week trip to Cape York next month. From the start i'm a little lost it was the VMS app then Mudmap HD (the product I brought) now there is Mudmap 2? Is Mudmap 2 different to Mudmap HD? And if so do I have to shell out another $150 for it?

I have found Mudmap HD a very user friendly format to use for the average 4wder(which is myself and no doubt your core consumer) and this was my reason for purchase. But now I find that I am a little disappointed we are planing to do some traveling around Georgetown, Julia Ck, Richmond and Hughenden but there is no detailed maps of this area showing fuel camping ect such as the Westprint maps that are available in other areas. I am now also worried after reading this thread that the maps may not be all that accurate and i'm going to have to pay for Mudmap 2 which I see as a trap to get me to pay for something I should have had the first time!

As I have stated I may have this all wrong as I am a little lost and overwhelmed with it all. But this is my perception of it all and i'm hoping someone can clear it all up for me.

Deeenmax
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by Deeenmax » May 28th, 2013, 12:20 pm

I have been looking into a GPS with offroad maps that I can use 'safely' with remote travel essentially areas I know little about. I was quite content on getting the Mud Map 2 app until I read this.

My question is what is the safest option if these style of maps are unreliable and dangerous. Is the Hema app a more wise choice?

Thanks, Dean
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boobook
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by boobook » May 28th, 2013, 4:08 pm

Download the Memory Map 250K topo map program on the PC which is free, or buy it for about $6 on Itunes, You can take a look at the free Geoscience 250K maps and keep them or trial Hema, or lots of other topo maps. They are real surveyed maps.

MUDmap
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by MUDmap » May 28th, 2013, 5:52 pm

Thanks for highlighting those pieces of missing data, i'll post this up on the community board and they will get added this week.

The focus of the community has been on Barrington tops + Coffs Harbour, Barringtons is very well mapped now, down to 50K scale, and coffs is coming along.

For the past 2 weeks, some members have been mapping the high country and the progress is coming along nicely. at a 100K scale, what was missing has been added, and in 2-3 weeks, this region will be very well mapped. We are coordinating an effort to map this region down to 25K scale, including fire trails, hiking trails, gates, barriers, track access info, etc etc, but this is a big effort so we encourage anyone with good knowledge of this region to pitch in.
Powerful 4WD Navigation apps & maps | Mud Map 2 for iPhone & iPad | Mud Map Android app | www.mud-maps.com

MUDmap
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by MUDmap » May 29th, 2013, 3:07 pm

Hey Duck8175,

Mud Map HD is a great 4WD app, and includes convenience such as auto routing using the SmartTOPO vector map. Mud Map 2 takes a different approach, giving you the ability to manually create routes right on your device or online and the first community made vector map called THEMAP.

The major differences between these 2 vector maps are...
• SmartTOPO uses commercially sourced NAVTEQ data, THEMAP uses OpenStreetMap data which is user generated.
• SmartTOPO provide auto routing. THEMAP provides manual route planning. Trade off being convenience vs flexibility.
THEMAP includes 100,000 POIs in various categories such as petrol stations, pubs, mountain peaks, etc.

Other differences are...
• Mud Map 2 lets you use digital raster maps you already own.
• Download routes for offline use.
• Mud Map 2 has a new user interface.
• Search works differently, Mud Map 2 has free search, e.g. Google maps style, where as Mud Map HD's search works like a more traditional GPS.

Common features are...
• Drop and sync Pins.
• Record / save and sync tracks.
• All westprint and BackCountry 4WD maps included with both apps.
• Download add on maps purchased from our Map Store for offline use.

In summary, even though both apps are very capable off-road navigation tools, they tackle the same problem differently.
Last edited by MUDmap on May 29th, 2013, 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Powerful 4WD Navigation apps & maps | Mud Map 2 for iPhone & iPad | Mud Map Android app | www.mud-maps.com

MUDmap
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by MUDmap » May 29th, 2013, 3:25 pm

Deeenmax,

THEMAP is just one of many 4wd maps included with Mud Map 2.

BackCountry and Westprint 4WD raster maps are also included. These maps are made from the same surveyed data that every other map is based off. You can also use maps from other brands with Mud Map 2, so you are not limited to what we can supply.

Mud Map 2 let's you easily switch between all the maps, and use the map you are most comfortable with.

Unfortunately, the nature of map making naturally introduces mistakes on every map. Traditionally, small teams collect and gather data then turn this into a map. This process takes at least 6 month or more commonly years. So by the time a map is available, there are inherent errors already. I'm sure you have noticed that paper maps are not updated very often?

This is the problem we are planning to solve. A complete digital and community approach minimises the time it takes to get up to date info into your hands. Right now, free updates to THEMAP deliver improvements and updates to all Mud Map 2 users monthly. And with a community of 4WD enthusiasts and mappers surveying and improving the map data, the pace of progress marches ahead much faster.
Powerful 4WD Navigation apps & maps | Mud Map 2 for iPhone & iPad | Mud Map Android app | www.mud-maps.com

boobook
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by boobook » May 29th, 2013, 5:22 pm

Mudmap, that is great marketing spin, you should be a politician. But a map that is 99.9% right and updated by professionals every 6 months is obviously more trustworthy than a map that is 50 - 70% right in remote areas updated randomly and frequently in small increments by non professionals.

I will repeat that in my opinion you should warn users that the maps are unreliable and dangerous. You may spin it as a better map but that's not how Openstreetmaps describe it.

This disclaimer below is from Openstreetmaps, the source of your mapping. Why don't you repeat it if you are honest to your customers who may rely on it to find their way. And note this is up front as the first section on their description page, not hidden away in some legal section, it is so important.

"OpenStreetMap is not a complete or accurate map of the world and should not be used in such a manner that deficiencies, omissions, inaccuracies or errors could result in death, loss or injury."

"It is particularly important to realise that the maps might not be reliable. This should be fairly obvious at this stage since you can see areas which are entirely un-mapped. The maps are very much a work-in-progress. We are aiming to produce maps which can be relied upon, equally well, or better than other maps. The openly-editable wiki nature of this mapping system may help us towards this goal, however it may also mean that there will always be some inaccuracies. You should make your own judgement about the accuracy of our maps. Always use our maps in conjunction with your senses, official sources and your common sense. "


If you know an area, it is very easy to find large numbers of errors and omissions, however if you don't know an area and need the map then users could rely on maps that are blatantly wrong.

The product is not fit for purpose for navigating in remote areas where lives are at stake. You really should highlight that to people who buy your maps. I just can't believe that your company is not up front with something that is potentially a life threatening issue.

Openstreetmaps would be a free alternative suitable for going for a bike ride in a park in a big city or other similar social activities where it doesn't matter if it is wrong, but clearly 4wding in remote areas requires an accurate map - which Openstreetmaps is far from.

ianjon
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by ianjon » May 30th, 2013, 11:46 am

Where are you getting this info about 4wd or topo maps been updated every 6 months? I'm a GIS consultant with DSE vic, and to my knowledge we are the most active gov department in gather map data in Aus. I can tell you now that the length between surveys of the same tracks are spread 2-10 years apart. It's not realistic to survey every road, track, trail in vic every 6 months.

Best case, ubd street directories are updated yearly. Best case for 4wd maps is 2-5 years.

This is the disclaimer that comes with all maps:

"The publisher and/or contributors to this publication accepts no responsibility for any injury, loss or damage arising from error or omission therein. While all care is taken to ensure a high degree of accuracy, users are invited to nofity any map discrepancies and should use this map with due care"

Like every organization, OSM is simply taking legal precautions.

Deeenmax
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Re: Mud Map 2

Unread post by Deeenmax » May 30th, 2013, 2:15 pm

Thanks boobook there's obviously a lot more to it than I first thought
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