Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Stolen vehicles and parts, help us track them down!
Heisenberg
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Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Heisenberg » October 11th, 2015, 8:02 pm

My white 2006 MK Triton (2.8TD) was recently stolen from Maddington. Reg JP4411 If you see or hear anything please PM me

Shann Low
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Shann Low » October 11th, 2015, 11:58 pm

GPS tracking alarm system?

Cullacabardi?

Les - PK Ranger
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Les - PK Ranger » October 13th, 2015, 6:09 am

Yours or a mates ?
Hope it comes home ok, and the theiving pr!cks get cancer :|

Heisenberg
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Heisenberg » October 24th, 2015, 3:18 am

Rightio, there have been developments with this.

Get a cup of coffee and a packet of Tim Tams, and sit back and digest a story of theft, fraud, and ultimately stupidity.

A couple of months ago I loaned the ute to one of my boarders. I told her she had to find somewhere else to live as she was pregnant to her ex-con boyfriend, and it was inappropriate for her to live with me and the other boarders in my house.

Apparently she found accommodation in a women's refuge, but next thing I hear from her that there has been an accident with the Triton - she was driving along and the bonnet flew up and smashed the windscreen. So she put it in for an insurance claim, as she told me that it was insured. Anyhow, apparently it wasn't, and the RAC figured out that it was a fraudulent claim and she had to pay transport and storage fees to retrieve it.

I rang the RAC, told them I was the owner, not Naomi (as she had claimed) and an I have my car back please. Apparently not they told me, as I wasn't the policy owner. Maybe not, I said but I AM THE OWNER SO WHERE IS MY F&*%ING CAR SO I CAN COME AND GET IT?

No dice - so I scanned the rego papers, reported the car stolen, and sent both the police report and the rego papers to the RAC but they still wouldn't release the car to me.

Peanuts.

Anyhow, so then I had to call the cops and get them to retrieve it for me, which they did. But then, and only then, they tell me that the panel shop didn't have one, and did I have one?

No I didn't, so I texted Naomi and told her to tell me where the key was or I'd have her charged with theft. No response. Anyhow, I went to where the car was, locked it with the keyless dongle, and left it overnight. Next day there was still no reply from Naomi. The following day I went to a locksmith, gave them the VIN number and they cut me a new key.

So I went back to retrieve the car and it was gone. So I reported it stolen and posted the original post on this site. I thought it was very odd that it disappeared so quickly, particularly given that it was parked in such a peominent place, and given that I knew the car wouldn't have started as the battery was dodgy and it had been sitting around for 6 weeks.

Fast forward to yesterday.

I decided to report her for the original theft, so I called the cops, gave them the rego no and was then told there was no car with that rego in my name. I was then told that the car was registered withg a new number, and in a company's name.


WTF? So then I rang the transport department and told them what happened. She asked me how someone could transfer the rego into their name if it was stolen, and I said "THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO KNOW!" It turns out that this happened in the 2 day period between me recovering the car and reporting it stolen.


So I went in to make a statement to the cops. The copper went through the statement, and then showed me the statement to proofread. Part of the statement included the name of the company that the car was now registered in, so when she went to print the document I googled the company name to find that it was a 2nd hand car dealer in Maddington.

So I showed the copper and she said theyd' investigate it. So I left the cop shop, and drove around to the address of this car yard. Lo and behold it's right around the corner from the place where the car was parked.

Sop here's whart happened. This stupid b&*ch came back, pulled the plates off the car, went to the transport dept and submitted a fraudulent transfer document and changed the plates. Then she went back to the car yard, and sold them the car for peanuts and pocketed the cash.

And she almost got away with it. Had I not decided to go in to put in a statement, I would never have discovered it.

So Im still waiting on the cops to get back to me, but I'm curious to know where this stands legally. Presumably once the paperwork has been chased down and the fraud has been confirmed, I can just go and collect the car.

But where does this leave the car yard I wonder? He bought the car in good faith, although given the circumstances he probably should have been a little suspicious. He will be out of pocket, but his beef is with the person who sold him the car, not me.

Anyhow, I'll keep you posted.

Gary_M
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Gary_M » October 24th, 2015, 7:02 am

On your chain of possession and who is stung by who Im assuming apart from price, the dealer has no reason to suspect an issue, or is knowingly part of any illegality. I believe if the dealer has done a REVs type check, hes done all he can to check the bona fides of the vehicle, so he keeps the car. Which would mean you get to go after the thief in civil court. Criminally she would likely go for something relating to fraud and false declarations, not just theft.

Price has little bearing, although might be a warnign to consider, but once youve done a REVs check youve exercised reasonable steps to investigate that suspicion. They would get bargain basement prices all the time, its how they do business.

Your problem with the dealer is likely to be how long you were missing the vehicle and when it was reported stolen. Youre reasons will count for little, the problem is the time taken creates these opportunities so in part, you might even be partly responsible. Certainly more responsible than the car yard in that late reporting to police. Had you reported it earlier, it would have been on a hot sheet and they likely would not have purchased it from her.

For all a court knows, you were in a scam with the bird, and then she bit you. Anyway, REVS checks are to protect buyers and state, clear title. The thief had transferred the car out of your name, and to the hers and then the dealers (if Im reading it right), it appeared she was entitled to sell the vehicle. They had no way to know it was fraudulent and you were the rightful owner. However, depending how she pulled that off, without considering the complication of how long you took to report it stolen, the transport department likely has some questions to answer for too. But I would guess your tardiness in reporting, will be the focus of how that went down. I myself have pruchased a car, lost receipts and had to fill out a stat dec to state I was the rightful owner, they would check the car is not reported stolen, I pay the fees, provide RWC and the vehicle is then regd in my name. So my guess is this is normal procedure, and the failure to report it stolen is the mechanism allowing this problem to occur.

But then the RAC or whatever workshop that held it were on notice of a disputed ownership after a police visit, and possibly aware the Police believe the vehicle was in fact yours. They released it to her, or at best they allowed for it to be retrieved by not securing the vehicle properly, and that allowed the transaction with the dealer to take place.

Current ownership and liability will unlikely be resolved by police. Im guessing youre gonna need a lawyer son, but probably not a real good one though.

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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Peter Aawen » October 24th, 2015, 9:21 am

Yep, ^^ I agree - I really don't think you are gonna get the car back Heisenberg, unless maybe the Car Dealer was (knowingly?) involved in the fraud or buying a stolen car!!

Do you have or did you have insurance on this car when all this started? If so, talk to your insurance company, ask to talk to their Complex Claims or Internal Dispute Resolutions people & lay the story out for them. If you still had insurance they should take it & run with it, sort you some $$ in recompense, & chase up the rest on their own behalf - THAT's what insurance companies & policies are for!! You might want to have a chat to the Financial Ombudsman service first, just to clarify in your own mind what your ins co should do for you & to let them consider talking to 'her' insurance co re their complicity in insuring something that she didn't own, but your insurance policy should pay you out for the loss without recovery, & it all becomes their problem then - & they have the knowledge & resources to get their $$ back a helluva lot quicker'n you from her or anyone else who's done the wrong thing too!!

If you didn't have insurance when the car first got 'stolen', then I believe you'll end up with no alternative but to chase her thru the civil courts, who (IF they find her to have done the wrong thing??!) will probably deem that at some stage in the next 50 years she will have capacity to pay you back & therefore they'll order her to pay $10 per fortnight from her centrelink pmt until she has, & just like the rest of us who've been thru this, you'll see the first payment & then she'll disappear off their local books & you'll see nothing else EVER!! :irked: you might be able to get some recompense from the Victims of Crime' fund; or maybe you can have a tilt at the Transport Dept, altho I don't think that'll do much except get someone there sacked, certainly not likely to get any $$ or your car back.

But if the Dealer did the things they are meant to/they should have done before buying a car from anyone then it's highly probable you ain't gonna get the car back. Sorry. :(

Maybe we should ask why ever did you 'lend' your car to someone you'd just tossed out of your house?...... Nope, I don't really want to know, it was a rhetorical question - I could ask more along the same lines, but the answers won't serve any real purpose & aren't likely to make any difference to the likelihood of you losing that vehicle, so I won't. :o
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

Gary_M
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Gary_M » October 24th, 2015, 10:42 am

Yep, insurance if youve got it.

But Id be interested in the RAC and the workshop/holding yards actions too. Both RAC and the workshop/holding yard were on notice that the owner might very well not be the woman and that owner had involved Police. Even if she owed them money, I dont think they can hold the asset of a 3rd party as surety. The complication, by your own admission she had the vehicle with your consent. And at one point the story reads as if they were going to release it to the owner here, or police, but a missing ?KEY? kyboshed that. So this indicates they were satisfied that the member here was the owner, you dont release it to the wrong owner hoping to just wipe your hands of it. But that also suggests they have no reason to release it to the woman. But a bailment is a funny thing, maybe they cant refuse her.

Did she pay out the outstanding debt that they held the vehicle over or did they just release it to her? Or did she or someone on her behalf come by after hours and simply retake possession?

Either way, the holding yard has played a role, they either released it to the wrong owner, and refused the rightful owner, or failed to secure a bailment properly. They might not be able to skate on it.

But I would wonder how they have had the vehicle, have done or looked at repairs, and had no key. It smells off. It could be they just played dumb re keys in order to keep the asset that covers their costs of recovery and storage etc. Or worse, they know her and were part of the insurance scam. I just cant see how they would not have a key when they collected the car. It makes getting it off the truck, in and out of the workshop, out of the way etc, doing the repairs etc far to much work.

Heisenberg
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Heisenberg » October 24th, 2015, 1:18 pm

Gary M and Peter - do you have any legal qualifications or direct experience with a matter such as this, and can speak from first-hand experience as to how this will play out?

Or are you just guessing?

Gary_M
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Gary_M » October 24th, 2015, 1:58 pm

Are they the only options?

There are laws regarding bailments. You can look them up, a bailment is the legal situation when a business such as a workshop has possession of property. They have rights and responsibilities under a Bailment.

REVS or actually its PPSR now, exists for the very reasons given. If you do a REVS check, and the vehicle comes back clean, even if its got money owed against it, you dont lose it as the new owner. The debt should be registered as a debt so that a REVS check will show any potential buyer that someone has a financial investment in it, ie: the loan to buy it is still not paid off. the buyer has done everything possible to check it, while the Creditor has failed to register the debt. Their bad, they have not done everything reasonable to protect their asset.

Courts in general are not interested in the quality of the bargain. That is the price. If it was stupid cheap it might be reason to raise an eyebrow in the dealer, but once he has done the checks, he has discharged that duty, and is free to make money by accepting the bargain before him. He is not obligated to refuse the deal just because its cheap. Thats his business, to buy cars for less than they are worth, and make a profit.

I have transferred vehicles into my name, without official transfer papers. This is easy done. Ive also done it with hand written receipts which could easily be written by anyone. When transferring a vehicle they very much depend on the details given, such as disposers name, and the fact it snot reported stolen. Even official transfer docs are easily filled out by anyone. Hell, I recall in Australia where a home was stolen. Not towed away, not a house removalist home gone missing. The house and land, title transferred, illegally. The original owner lost the home, the new owners legally get to keep it. It is not right to visit the errors/carelessness/misplaced trust of original owners, on new owners who have done all they can to discharge their duty of bona fides.

So are they guesses? Not so much. But have I failed to report a car stolen, after I loaned it willingly to a girl I kicked out of her home, and then she failed to return it? Did I fail to get incvolved when she told me its been damaged but its here, dont worry I have insurance on your car so it will be fixed by X workshop? No, no I havent. Not sure how many people you will find with experience on that one, at least not many that will admit it. You might not like the sound of this, but this is what you just told us you did.

But if you want a qualified legal opinion, maybe a law forum is more suited than a 4x4ers forum. I doubt too many solicitors will be offering you hundreds of dollars of advice, gratis. Note, I did say youre gonna need a lawyer. Police cant just take the car from the dealer. They dont know that you didnt sell the car to the bird, and she onsold it. They know you say you didnt, sure, but the usual legalities of ownership have been satisfied for the dealer too. Police cant take a side, all they do is act on law. And both of you are making a claim, and the dealer can back his claim up as well as you can. So its a civil matter.

Let me try to explain. Imagine a couple of scenarios.

You buy the ute, you cant find the receipt , you cant find or its too difficult to contact the old owner etc. Shoudl you be prevented from registering your new car? No. So the Trans Auth has means to accommodate you, and they in part rely on owners reporting as stolen vehicles in a timely manner. You fill out stat decs that make statements you are the owner, you paid for it, how much, etc. If these are false, there are stiff penalties for those false statements.

So now imagine, you and this bird decide on a scam. To sell the car to a dealer then you claim it back as yours, a victimless crime some might argue. No its not an accusation at all, its merely asking you to see it from the perspective of people who do not KNOW what has happened, Police, Transport Dept, Car Yard. After she is able to transfer the car into her name, she appears perfectly qualified to dispose of it. She goes in to a Transport Dept office, transfers the car into her name, she informs them she cant find the receipt and youre not easy to find to get it again. So far scam is underway, she has the car in her name now, and is able to pass title on to someone else. She could not do that if you report the car stolen in a timely manner. As you didnt, she was able to sell YOUR car.

So how does the dealer know that its not her car? He checks the rego, he checks REVS which will report stolen too, but they likely have a means of more directly checking for stolen cars. So, the car is transferred to the dealer. And he has done no wrong in doing that. There is no reasonable step he has failed to take.

But you didnt report the car stolen. That, is your bad, not the dealers, but returning your property to you, would visit penalties for your late reporting on them.

Maybe they are guesses. I wouldnt say they were wild guesses though.
Last edited by Gary_M on October 24th, 2015, 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter Aawen
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Peter Aawen » October 24th, 2015, 2:08 pm

No specific 'legal qualifications' here, but some training & experience in helping others navigate thru this sort of thing as well as spending time working in & with all parties involved in the motor industry, motor vehicle insurance, & the policing of same.

So Yeah, beyond expressing my thoughts on what you are facing as my 'thoughts & opinion' in the way I did as 'an educated guess' I should've added (& now do) that YOU really need to seek 'proper legal advice' as a priority rather than relying on any advice from a Forum/the internet, where (unless explicitly stated otherwise) any advice given is really only worth the paper it's printed on by the person providing it - & just between you & me, I don't see any paper here!!

But as I mentioned earlier, I don't think you are in a good position to expect to get the vehicle back; & really, after what it may have been thru, apart from getting recompense for its real value to you, now knowing that it's been pranged/damaged, possibly poorly repaired, likely thrashed & broken into, possibly 'less than well cared for', as well as being subjected to a variety of dodgy title & rego dealings that are very likely to continue haunting it for the rest of its life, do you seriously want it back?? :confused:
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

Heisenberg
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Heisenberg » November 3rd, 2015, 10:03 pm

I got the car back.

For the purpose of completing the education of those who caused me sleepless nights with their "educated guesses", the rights of the original owner trump the rights of everyone else. And iof you think about it, that's how it should be - otherwise it removes the onus on potential buyers to check the bona fides of the car.

The car dealer had carried out some minor repairs to it, and although I had no legal obligation to do so, I covered his costs.

I learned a lesson though - when you are buying a car ALWAYS check the VIN number, not just the rego. By the time the bloke bought it off the dealer, it had been rteported stolen, but the plates had changed - a VIN search would have turned up the theft report.

So the dealer refunded the buyer, I paid the dealer for the repairs, and the dealer is pursuing the dopey b^@#h who stole the car. Incredible that she thought that she'd get away with it, but some people are just that stupid....

Peter Aawen
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Peter Aawen » November 3rd, 2015, 11:01 pm

I suspect that hidden somewhere in there will be some quirk to the story & that 'something' has been party to you ending up being lucky in getting your car back Heisenberg - I know quite a few on both sides of the 'buying a used car' table who haven't ended up with the vehicle they thought they (once or now) owned; and I suspect there will be many more until everyone starts taking on board that lesson you learned about checking the VIN AND the Rego (& I hope also the lesson about reporting dodgy dealings ASAP! ;) )

That said, I AM glad that you've been lucky enough to have got your car back - is it now in as good condition as it was before all this, & have you been able to ensure that all the shenanigans with titles & who the 'registered owner' actually is have been properly cleared up?
An Ex-Service person is someone who thought enough about their country & how great it is, how lucky we are to live here, to write a blank cheque made out to 'The People and Commonwealth of Australia' for the value of 'Up to & including my Life!'

Heisenberg
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Heisenberg » November 4th, 2015, 12:44 am

I suspect that hidden somewhere in there will be some quirk to the story & that 'something' has been party to you ending up being lucky in getting your car back Heisenberg


I'm not sure what you're referring to. From the moment that we figured out what happened there was never any question or suggestion - from the cops at least - that I'd have it returned.

The trouble with this sort of thing isi that there is far too much of "I knew a bloke who knew a bloke who knew a bloke whose cousin's mate's girlfriend's brother's neighbour's mate's dad got a car knocked off and he didn't get it back even when they found it.

In other words, I'm interested in hearing chapter and verse about ANY circumstance where a stole car was found and the owner didn't get it back. Details and facts, that is.
That said, I AM glad that you've been lucky enough to have got your car back - is it now in as good condition as it was before all this, & have you been able to ensure that all the shenanigans with titles & who the 'registered owner' actually is have been properly cleared up?
Not back in my name yet, but the cop told me I call transport, explain what happened, give them the police report and it shouldn't cost me a cent

Gary_M
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Gary_M » November 4th, 2015, 1:44 am

First up, Im glad you got it back. Alls well that ends well. But my post and Im sure Peters too was not a desire to condemn you, or a statement of haha.

This has nothing to do with "knew a bloke down the pub whos brothers mothers auntys best friend XX".

You only need to understand what the REVs or PPSR guarantees. It guarantees clear title to the purchaser. That is its purpose. Its government backed, it is law. If youre buying a car, prior to purchase, and thats important that its prior to purchase, you perform a PPSR, and it comes back clear, no one can take the car from you. All you need do is present the printout showing the PPSR gave the vehicle the all clear. Not even a bank, not anyone. To put it in your context, a PPSR search is checking the vehicles bona fides.

My GUESS is the caryard has not performed a PPSR search, or they have taken a burden on they were entitled to leave at your door. Which is damn good of them.

You acted foolishly. From kindness, or whatever it really doesnt matter. But you got off easy, and a poor caryard is left holding your bag. I know you have a different take on it, and i can sympathise with that, but its erroneous to see it that way. I have no idea what prompted the caryard to return it, but lucky you.

From the TMR, (Qlds transport dept.)
Personal Property Securities Register certificate

A Personal Property Securities Register certificate tells you if the vehicle that you are thinking of buying has:

any outstanding debt attached to it
the details of the vehicle if it has been written-off
been stolen.
This is how I know. I dodnt hear it from some bloke down the pub. Its law. It cant show if its stolen until its reported stolen. That failure is not the buyers, and can not be visited on them.

Shann Low
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Re: Stolen Triton Maddington (WA)

Unread post by Shann Low » November 4th, 2015, 3:59 am

Still wondering how the lad will get on with his new triton that's approaching 30,000 km's and the vin and license plates its wearing don't match up!

To recap - 2 black tritons from the same dealer licensed on the same day carrying dealer plates & brought back to dealers yard.

Wrong license plates attached to each car.

Owners drive out with the right vehicles but the license papers for vin number show the other number plate.

Do Transport Dept & dealer between them, just change all that over to make the vins match the number plates that were wrongly attached, so that each owner and vin numbered vehicle keeps the license plates they are each wearing & the paper work gets fixed?

Lads had nothing from Transport in the way of paperwork to say anythings changed. Dealer said leave it with them they would fix it.

The "issue" being in event of an accident, requiring insurance claim - couldn't the claim be denied if the license plate & vin number on the vehicle do NOT match the DOT records that have been supplied to the insurer for the vehicle? Could insurance deny claim, because paper work doesn't match up?

It MIGHT end up they repair someone else's vehicle they never insured in the first place... if they go by the license plate details (and not the vin numbers).

Just strange that there's been nothing from Dept Transport in the way of correct paperwork to fix the simple mess up.

No idea where this crap will end up. Until someone crashes one of the vehicles or one gets stolen - how long can the error continue on..... are both vehicles effectively driving around uninsured?

I've seen DOT make mistakes in the past - I had to put the 2nd lads Holden adventra over the pits a few years back to re license it - and it was 430 on a Fri Arvo and a mixup in the line & the girl at the counter had 2 screens for 2 vehicles open at the same time. The other guy was licensing a BMW he bought at auction.

On the way home I looked at the license papers and the lads Holden Adventra now had a 4cyl BMW engine in it! :lol:

DOT eventually tracked it all back to fix it coz the BMW guy tried to flip (sell) the car in Bunbury the next week for a quick profit and he couldn't effect transfer coz it had a 6 cyl holden engine in it according to the transport license papers and the engine numbers didn't match the cars engine numbers or vin etc.

So there was new paper work issued but the lad first had to pay extra license fees coz 6 cyl cost more to register than 4 cyl.

It's a wonder anything works with car licensing thru transport dept.
With the lads triton i am even wondering if each might get the others multinova speeding fines etc in the mail due to the number plates mix up.?

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