Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

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Goldylux
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Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Goldylux » August 16th, 2015, 12:52 pm

With out starting an all in scale battle or having the usuals post there
short novels on technicality's of the law, what is the go with these things?

I'm talking about fixed speed cameras or the little white vans on the side of the road.
I have been pinged twice in the last month one was supposedly 8kmh over in a 60 zone
and the other supposedly 11kmh over in a 100.

Being someone that usually never speeds and having never had any infringements for
speeding it comes as a shock. What is more shocking that i'm worried to drive the car
because if your getting pinged for not speeding,how can you win?

Without taking the matter to court you just have to cop it on the chin? How accurate
are these things? Without me having a camera with the time and date on it and a
speed calculator on my dash,how can I prove I wasn't speeding?

Unless a bunch of people contest it i'm guessing then they realise the machine isn't
working properly or whatever? Maybe everyone just pays the fines and accepts it?
and the machines keep going on pinging people actually doing the speed limit?

I personally have never liked the things as they are just sneaky revenue
raisers, under the guise of saving lives which is nonsense. Cops actually out
there does slow people down and gives people a lesson. Snapping someone
at 5am from behind bushes doesn't.

Anyway I just thought oh well don't speed,don't get caught. Maybe not. ?

Shann Low
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Shann Low » August 16th, 2015, 2:55 pm

how can I prove I wasn't speeding?
http://www.newsmaker.com.au/news/10443/ ... dATzJdapdg
GPS Tracking Device beats hand held Police radar in court
A GPS Tracking Device has helped Sydney driver, Michael Simotas, after he was charged with speeding by NSW Police officers using a hand held radar. Mr Simotas was allegedly doing 85 klm/hr in a 60 klm/hr speed zone.

Fortunately, the vehicle Mr Simotas was driving was equipped with an Ezitrak GPS Tracking Device and Security System. Michael was able to download the "black box" from his EziTrak unit which provided accurate, tamper-free data of the vehicle's travelling speed, position and direction. Through this data, he was able to prove that his vehicle briefly touched 61 klm/hr at the time he was charged but was mostly travelling at 57 klm/hr.

MS Grabowski continued, "During the subsequent case and appeal, we were happy to provide Michael with a qualified GPS Engineer who appeared as an expert witness. He gave corroborating evidence and attested to the accuracy of GPS, and the inability to tamper with the data."

This is the first case in NSW where GPS data has been admissible in evidence to contest the accuracy of police radar.

EziTrak utilises GPS and GSM technology to give the owner instant tampering notification, control, tracking and emergency alert information over the phone.

EziTrak has an internal Black Box Recorder logging speed, position, time and date from 1 to 255 hours. This information can be downloaded to a PC and then played back on a moving map display. The data is accurate and cannot be tampered with.

EziTrak was designed by Sydney based company Rojone Pty Ltd., is manufactured in Australia, and is sold throughout the country, as well as being exported to the UK, USA and many other countries.
These particular GPS trackers have a "black box" that can and does 'remember/save' your position and speed etc saved every 1 second, for 255hours (i.e. 10+ days) !

You can download and save it, and use it in court, to prove you weren't speeding or at the place and time stated on the fine (assuming you weren't). Legal precedent is there already.

Like everything - there's all the other benefits of having one (reduced insurance premiums, theft prevention/recovery etc etc) yet most people are too tight arsed to buy them & prefer to whine online when their cars stolen or they get pinged by a camera.

It's human nature at the end of the day!.

If everyone had them and it was costing law enforcement a $ squillion in lost fines and court costs awarded against them - and also tying up the courts for years or decades, coz everyone was contesting the fines with concrete proof.... then they would either fix the cameras or find some other way to tax you for the 'lost revenue stream' (cough "toll roads").

The govt spend a LOT of $ to take $$$ from you 'illegally' with bogus speed infringements... yet the average punter won't spend $1K to prevent it... protect themselves even when your insurer rebates you $200 a year on your insurance premium, so effectively pays for the unit, in premium savings over 5 years!

That's human nature at the en dof the day - we have the technology - but people would sooner stick their head in the sand - pay thru the wazooo 100 different ways (insurance premiums and fines) and whine about it loudly online, than actually DO anything about it!.

A lifetime ago I was an agent for these for a couple years!

Only ones I ever sold, were to myself! :rolleyes:

People largely deserve the crap they suffer... Answer? - When your already in a hole........ stop digging! ;) :D

Goldylux
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Goldylux » August 16th, 2015, 3:58 pm

I'll just pay them then.

Shann Low
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Shann Low » August 16th, 2015, 4:28 pm

Dunno if it will help any, but my B-I-L who's a traveling sales guy (tire wholesales rep) - was usually down to his last demerit point for years basically - so just couldn't afford to speed and get caught again... as he'd get 3 points back - he'd lose them them again the same week, sort of thing. Always down to his last point, and with use of the sat nave and 5kph warning sound, as well as using his cruise control setting in city traffic, it sort of helped prevent him accidentally 'creeping up in speed' to match everyone else speeding 10kph above the limit in order to stay with the flow.

It "changed his habit" essentially....and eventually he got most of his points back!

He reckons that thinking ahead, 'stressing' about how many clients he had to see that day, would unconsciously cause him to press harder on the go pedal to get there sooner & that was leading to him getting pinged all the time.

Cruise control and the sat nav 'over speed warning' essentially taught him to sit back and relax and get there when he gets there!. This in turn caused him to use his time planner more effectively in setting more realistic targets of how many clients a day he could reasonably see without speeding and losing his license, leave home earlier to beat the peak traffic flows etc.

Effective time management I guess...

Really, it's just about changing long term learned 'bad' habits - which can be a lot tougher than many understand.

Or

Just pay the bill! :lol: :D

Gary_M
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Gary_M » August 16th, 2015, 7:07 pm

The drama will be that many people know they drive right on the speed limit, and dont get fines. So it sounds real convenient when someone says I dont speed, and got pinged. No idea if its true or not for you, just an observation. Science suggests they are reliably accurate, provided they are operated as per makers instructions. This is where there might be grey areas, but again, Ive had newer lasers pointed at me, Ive driven toward the old style X and K or whatever they were radars, still do with the new radars mounted on cars, and I havent been pinged. I have a couple fixed cams near me so pass them frequently, and I dont get fines. Dont get me wrong I have had idiot tax notices before, but I was probably speeding so I find it hard to believe when someone says they got pinged, but werent speeding.

I always find the revenue raising argument funny. Of course they are, its their nature, but you dont have to contribute.

Theyve been contested, and there are ways to do it, freely available in the net. I think theres even a website with lawyers ready to take it on, but will cost you.

For most people you cant prove you werent speeding without devices recording your movements, simply because who the hell remembers how fast they were driving at a specific moment in time, 4 weeks ago? And this I find dodgy, you dont have the chance to defend against it really, just in case something is off. But in the end, I dont think theres a scam here, I dont think they are pinging people who dont speed, chances are if youve been pinged, you were probably speeding. That might not always be true, and it wouldnt surprise me if they got caught rigging the system, but until there is evidence they are Im pretty sure its not happening.

Goldylux
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Goldylux » August 16th, 2015, 8:20 pm

The thing is you shouldn't have to be worried about doing the speed limit.
The limit is there for a reason. The same reason I use the cruise control on
the car and have the over speed buzzer thing at 110. I also know the camera is there
so I make an extra point to check my speed through there.

Anyway,just something else to take on the chin.

They have proven time and time again to cause more accidents than they reduce.

Ill just have to be the annoying person that does 10 kays under everywhere. Which
can be more dangerous again. Oh well at least theyre saving lives.

chris_stoffa
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by chris_stoffa » August 17th, 2015, 10:57 am

Forward observation , forward observation and more forward observation ....... looking , looking , looking

I find that if your not looking ahead then you will get pinged, you can generally pick them from a mile off due to where they park and how they park...... generally.

There is a gps unit , GPSLOGBOOK, that because it is acceptable to the ATO and uploads to an ATO approved database just MIGHT be useful in questioning a camera reading, the unit can be set up to log speed at defined intervals then recall that data from a google based map display. Mine proved that i was 5 kph over where the camera got me ....... i did say i can see them, generally.

I have compared it against 3 gps units and it is extremely accurate. To such a extent that i can tell exactly which side of the road or lane im in or which carpark i use when overlaid to googlemaps/ earth

At only 130 bucks and 25 per year besides never having to write anither log book for the business it is excellent for vehicle maintinance or just knowing where your vehicles have been
03 Bravo 2.5TD DCab

evaredy
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by evaredy » August 17th, 2015, 11:41 am

You can also buy a DashCam for about $400, fit it to your windscreen. Along with video, it records everything else, Speed, elevation, GPS location, time of day etc.
I have been using an Itronics ITB-100HD for a couple of years now and it has never missed a beat. You can find more info here, http://dashboardcamerareviews.com/itron ... -plus/#wtb

Some cameras only loop the footage, so they will record over it, be sure to check that you can turn this feature off.

This would allow you to check your location and speed in the event you were issued with a ticket.

foogill
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by foogill » August 17th, 2015, 12:47 pm

I've got a VMS on the dash & use the cruise control to avoid any potential problems. Got stopped one morning in roadworks, knew dam well I wasn't over the limit, strongly suspected that the copper was killing time or shaking the tree to see what fell out. When he suggested I was speeding, I pointed at the GPS and asked him if he wanted me to recreate the event? He steered the conversation immediately to drink driving, I blew in the bag & away I went. I could no more recreate an event on a VMS than swim to Africa.

Pretty sure that to win against the cameras, you have to prove that the system is somehow defective, most people can't be bothered & simply pay the fine, that's how the fine system works.

Gary_M
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Gary_M » August 17th, 2015, 1:16 pm

But that system is the same as it always was. The difference is now a device with camera is doing the reading, before it was a copper that said he followed you at X speed for Y meters and did not gain on you so you must have been doing Y speed. And then you had to go to court, argue with the copper and hope the judge thought there was reason to doubt the coppers word. But the system doesnt work if its your word vs theirs so nothing can be proved kind of thing, so the coppers word naturally carried more weight.

I rolled through a stop sign a year or so ago, for years that intersection had a give way sign, I didnt even notice it was a stop sign at the time, copper was sitting poised in the servo exit just down the road a little facing that intersection, obviously a good spot for the very offence. Theres no reason for it to be a stop sign, a give way is perfectly fine where it is. Anyway, its back to a give way sign again.

foogill
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by foogill » August 17th, 2015, 2:02 pm

Your word against a sworn officer of the crown, you're not going to win that one.

I have noticed that by some coincidence patrol cars tend to frequent new traffic areas, not the black spots. The new Forrest Highway had more cops on it than the Mexican border, meanwhile the South-West Highway was deserted.

Goldylux
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Goldylux » August 17th, 2015, 2:09 pm

Is this vms thing plug and play? swappable from different cars?

I'm starting to realise why people have dash cams. I don't want one to catch out
bad drivers, I want one to protect me from the law.

4wd Hobbit
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by 4wd Hobbit » August 17th, 2015, 2:12 pm

Because of the way a GPS calculates speed there is aways a lag of a second or two - no problem when at a steady speed but when accelerating or slowing a GPS does not show actual speed - shows what it was a second or two before hand.

One way of demonstrating this is to come to a stop quite quickly from say 80kph - note the GPS speed when you actually stop - you will note it its speed will still be up around 30kph and winding down not getting to 0 until well after you have already stopped - this is one of the reasons it is still hard to use GPS to prove you were not speeding.

However if you can show speed for a while before you are booked and am at a steady speed then it is a good option.

I have a dash cam - works well and records everything.

foogill
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by foogill » August 17th, 2015, 2:50 pm

Goldylux wrote:Is this vms thing plug and play? swappable from different cars?

I'm starting to realise why people have dash cams. I don't want one to catch out
bad drivers, I want one to protect me from the law.
It's just a brand of GPS. Suction cup on the windscreen.

Read the above post but a GPS will giv a much more accurate speed than a speedo. You'll find a phone app that will give you a speedo.

Goldylux
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Re: Flash for cash/GOVT donation cameras

Unread post by Goldylux » August 18th, 2015, 5:09 pm

Went past a parked, white xtrail today with the usual donation collecting gear in
the back. (digital cameras and whatnot of various sorts) and made a point
of going well under the limit.

Should probably be expecting a fine next week. :rolleyes:

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