thoughts on police

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chris_stoffa
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by chris_stoffa » February 23rd, 2015, 10:54 pm

Stockhorse then you also know that in many instances that attitude is a direct result of the attitude of the public itself , like Mr Smith.

Coppers are human , and they make mistakes, they react to circumstances and they say the wrong word and its dissected ad infiniteum by arm chair critics , civil libertarians and do gooders. To say that coppers cannot and should never make mistakes is an unrealistic utopia. Sure coppers need to change with the times but they cant all be the perfect copper because he doesn't exist.

They are being distanced from the general public by the general public itself and it isn't by their choice. The public itself has allowed that distance to happen and then they wonder why.

The public need to value the people who do the jobs that they themselves are incapable or unwilling or unqualified to do to do rather than just stand back and criticize without understanding or just based on halfarse information like a 1minute video grab by Mr I'm An Angry Ar$Sehole

It is one of the few jobs where 10% of society think that they, by dint of their own grandiose assessment, believe that they are infinitely more qualified to do the job yet they have no understanding of its requirements.

As Billy Connelly once said,"Do I come to your house to tell you how to sweep up"-

The public think that they can and yet they have no idea how to hold the broom. And some of them frequent here from time to time.
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Heisenberg
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by Heisenberg » February 24th, 2015, 1:36 am

chris_stoffa wrote:They don't just guess speed , it is based on their considered opinion and experience therefore they can estimate speed and they are held at law to be an "expert"at it unless you can prove otherwise in which case you should be given the benefit of the doubt or you have thrown up reasonable doubt in the officers ability to judge speed. If a motorist believes that they have been wrongly accused they can dispute the matter in court.

The decision to consider coppers as experts at it is a long held precedent at law.
Bulltish. You haven't spent much time in traffic court, have you?

Timmo
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by Timmo » February 24th, 2015, 4:10 am

chris_stoffa, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I just think that in order for it to be 100% accurate and give no one reason to doubt the result, that speed needs to measured by a calibrated device to eliminate the element of human error......just like BAC is measured with a calibrated device and its results are accurate. As you've said, people sometimes make mistakes.

Yes, I think an estimate can be unfair. Would I contest it? No. I know it's a battle I would more than likely lose, even with my clean driving record.
Cheers,

Nathan

chris_stoffa
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by chris_stoffa » February 24th, 2015, 8:02 am

Heisenberg wrote:
chris_stoffa wrote:They don't just guess speed , it is based on their considered opinion and experience therefore they can estimate speed and they are held at law to be an "expert"at it unless you can prove otherwise in which case you should be given the benefit of the doubt or you have thrown up reasonable doubt in the officers ability to judge speed. If a motorist believes that they have been wrongly accused they can dispute the matter in court.

The decision to consider coppers as experts at it is a long held precedent at law.
Bulltish. You haven't spent much time in traffic court, have you?
.

What part of held at law to be presumed an expert at estimating speed is bulltish , or what part of the court should give you the benefit of the doubt should you throw up reasonable doubt is bulltish , its a basic tenant of our judicial system. And a motorist who believes that they are wrongly accused can always dispute the matter in court which is also a legal right .

They are facts.

And No, not as a defendant :lol:
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chris_stoffa
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by chris_stoffa » February 24th, 2015, 8:19 am

Timmo wrote:chris_stoffa, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I just think that in order for it to be 100% accurate and give no one reason to doubt the result, that speed needs to measured by a calibrated device to eliminate the element of human error......just like BAC is measured with a calibrated device and its results are accurate. As you've said, people sometimes make mistakes.

Yes, I think an estimate can be unfair. Would I contest it? No. I know it's a battle I would more than likely lose, even with my clean driving record.
Timmo,

Of course an estimate can be unfair, just as a moving speed check can be unfair if conducted incorrectly yet very few will question that because "the coppers checked my speed in traffic"

Note at no time did i state that coppers should use the method. What I have stressed is that they can , and when they do it is presumed by the courts that they are good at it. Some seem to have missed that point.

It's one of the quirks of the law, as is the exemption to use a mobile phone for coppers, the legal system is full of them.

If people dont like it, argue it in court ,it is their right OR talk to their local member of parliament, but as said, I wish them luck with that particular one.

Cheers
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Heisenberg
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by Heisenberg » February 24th, 2015, 9:59 pm

[/quote]



And No, not as a defendant :lol:[/quote]

That's my exact point. You're just guessing. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Here's a tip that I picked up when I first (successfully) defended a traffic charge - most magistrates think that cops are just dumb grunts who like wasting peoples' time with frivolous charges. Which is somewhat of a coincidence because that's what I think of them too.

If they come before a magistrate and they don't have every i dotted and every tee crossed the magistrate just chucks it out. And you're talking about a cop coming into court and saying that he "estimated" the speed? The magistrate would toss it out in a heartbeat, but not before he had pi55ed himself laughing and told the cop what a wanker he was.

foogill
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by foogill » February 25th, 2015, 12:12 am

Copper was tested at Goulborn back in the 80s, it was into the high 200 count that he got the estimated speed wrong & that was by 1kph.

chris_stoffa
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by chris_stoffa » February 25th, 2015, 11:25 am

Heisenberg wrote: And No, not as a defendant :lol:
That's my exact point. You're just guessing. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
Heisenberg, if I'm just guessing and haven't got a clue please enlighten us all further as to the relevant Case Law, Legal Precedents or Legislation that refutes any thing that I have originally posted here. As said they are Facts, you might not like them but they are fact. Not Bulls**t as you claim.
Heisenberg wrote: Here's a tip that I picked up when I first (successfully) defended a traffic charge - most magistrates think that cops are just dumb grunts who like wasting peoples' time with frivolous charges. Which is somewhat of a coincidence because that's what I think of them too.
Congratulations you had a win on a couple of traffic issues which I previously stated is the right of any person to challenge but its not really a tip that I consider worth much as no doubt you have had repeated and deep, meaningful discussions with numerous Magistrates to form such a definitive opinion.

Care to quote your sources.

No doubt at the completion of your matters that you high-fived the magistrates, retired to their chambers, drank their 25 year old scotch and regaled them with your thoughts on the IQ of Police in general as you state. And you suggest that they have obviously agreed with you it would seem . What a privilege that must have been ;)

Forgive me if I doubt you that you are privy to the thoughts of magistrates in general ,rather that you formed that opinion based on your own prejudices.
Heisenberg wrote:If they come before a magistrate and they don't have every i dotted and every tee crossed the magistrate just chucks it out. And you're talking about a cop coming into court and saying that he "estimated" the speed? The magistrate would toss it out in a heartbeat, but not before he had pi55ed himself laughing and told the cop what a wanker he was.
And you conversely really haven't got a clue what you're talking about, the day a magistrate does what you suggest in the manner you suggest is not a day that he would himself forget in a hurry, they are far too intelligent for that crap.

What I did say is that Police can estimate speed, I didn't say that they had to , or that they should - legal precedent says they can and its the magistrates call to accept of reject the information - You haven't read what I wrote and it shows.

You may have had a win or two , many do, when you have had literally hundreds and even many more hundreds of hours in courts , then you may have a basis of facts to work from.
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BigDutchy
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by BigDutchy » February 25th, 2015, 8:06 pm

Thank you for the above chris_stoffa.
I have worked and still am working very closely with police and do spend a bit of time (for work) in court. I have never
heard a magistrate using mentioned language and never a magistrate told me his or her thoughts regarding members of the Police service/force.
We discuss many issues but we never came up with the nonsense you have mentioned Mr Heisenberg.
I am going to court tomorrow to assist a few clients. I really hope that the magistrate doesn't call my client a wanker.....
cause if he does it will become a long day.....

It might be good to close this topic. It appears to run in circles!

Cheers

Les - PK Ranger
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by Les - PK Ranger » February 25th, 2015, 8:36 pm

All I know (from personal observations as a much younger man) is that when the Police estimate something they almost always give a much more favorable level infringement to the offender.
Cameras don't, if a state has almost zero tolerance, you will get booked for a couple of ks over.

burbling 60
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by burbling 60 » February 26th, 2015, 11:50 am

I have no issue with a cop pulling some nimrod over and judging him 30km over the limit by eyeball as long as its more like 120 in a 60 zone

Someone doing 10km over the limit - not so much

Goldylux
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by Goldylux » March 5th, 2015, 4:44 pm

Chris, the line under your name in your avi is spot on.
You need to get out more.

What actually happens in real life compared to what happens in court
are two different things all together. Especially if its from so called "facts"
that are essentially based on someones interpretation. I have been told in court
that the police's word was "gospel".

Imagine the possibilities when you can fabricate truth at will and it will
be gospel in the court of law.

I have the utmost respect for servicemen and used to work in a hospital along
side a lot of them and as a volunteer firefighter for many years so i know
what they deal with.

To think there is no corruption or that the people wanting them to do the right thing
arent doing the right thing themselves is just silly. The cops are paid to do the right thing
and protect the rest of us. I agree they probably arent getting paid enough but
thats what they get paid to do.

muzza01
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Re: thoughts on police

Unread post by muzza01 » March 7th, 2015, 6:40 pm

Hopefully we have all finished now and let everyone have an opinion.

My opinion is the guy will get off the speeding allegation because trying to prove someone is exceeding the speed limit by 10km/h with their uncalibrated eyeball is bull5hit.

I guess we will all find out when it goes to Court.
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