Snatch strap safety

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Laidley 62 Series
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by Laidley 62 Series » December 19th, 2010, 10:43 am

Thanks Phil,

I guess when you see something called " The Jeep Jamboree ", on a vid and watch all the errors which could be life threatening then it seems that what you and I are talking about has been totally missed by this group.

It is great that there are clubs like the one you are associated with takes safety seriously.

David

Have a safe holiday season Phil to you and your family.
1985 F J 62, barn doors, poverty pack.

My Karma ran over my Dogma.

God created the 60 Series, man made the rest.

60 Series trip to Cape York 2013.

vk1dx
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by vk1dx » December 31st, 2010, 3:43 pm

You have a good one also David.

We did almost 4000K in the last two weeks visiting realtives. Check out my comment in the thread about speed not being th ekiller. Cant remember the threads exact title.

Happr New Year to all

Phil

whizzo
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by whizzo » February 1st, 2011, 10:32 pm

Lets look at this idea and have a bit of a think......I did think on this sort of thing myself.....but realised there are more important things to fix and more things to understand.

OK unless the vehicle being snatched is a Jimni, the breaking strain on the snatch will be arround 8 tonnes or more...the strap will elongate something like 30 to 50%... all the energy from power and weight of the tow vehickle over the time taken to accelrate and stretch the strap is stored in that strap......when it lets go it is all released at once......that is a huge amount of energy when it all lets go.
Just as a painfull reminder..get a fair sized rubber band and stretch it till it breaks, you will get hurt... now make that rubber band break at 8 tonnes or worse 11 tonnes

so small straps or ropes will do very little.

Those straps in question can only effect a small number of the least likly breakage places..... or what should be the least likly places

What we realy should be considering is what the various ratings of the variuos hardware is and knowing what will break first.

Firstly running an equaliser strap is a very good thing, because you have bucklies of getting a strong enough single attachment point on most of the vehicles to make a single recovery point stronger than the snatch strap.

now to those shackles.....if you are going to use shackles with your recovery points, ya better make danm sure those recovery points are adequate so they do not come away complete with shackle.

remember if those shackles are rated lifting gear, they will have a failure point at least 4 times that marked... so your 3 tonne shackle should hold for well over 12 tonnes......they will most likley be the last thing to break.
If your combined recovery points can not hold well above 8 tonnes, you are guaranteeing your shackle and recovery point will be the missile when your end fails.

If it is a loop recovery point used with a shackle....ya realy want it to hold with plenty to spare....anybody seen a single 12 tonne recovery point for a domestic 4wd... .even somthing at 6 tonnes would be unusual
Will the 2 bolts and the chasis hold at that.... are you sure

So there is a real case for using hook recovery points in this case.....with out a lot of trouble the best you will manage on a hook recovery point is about 4.5 tonnes......so you will need two and that equaliser bridle......serioulsy think about this if you have a heavy 4wd that requires an 11 tonne snatch strap.

At least with the hook recovery point you don't have to add extra steel to make a connection and you have a fair chance the hook will straighten and stay attached to the vehicle......they do sometimes break.

If we can we want to put ourselves in a position where the strap is the failure point and in the span where it is lightest and softest.

It is most unlikely that a strap in good repair, from a reputable source will fail in the loop or the stiching.

now look at that equaliser bridle......there is a certain amount of damping provided there.....unless the whole front of the chasis pulls off, it is probable that one recovery point will fail before the other....the equaliser may provide some damping as it unthreads......it might also whip back too.

So there is plenty to consider and get right before we start looking at those bypass straps.

now onto cable dampers.........seriosly either go and buy something proper or make something that will work properly.... my shop baught dampers cost me $25 each they are very similar to more expensive brands..$25 isn't much.

The damper is not worth a rats' if it flips off as the strap straightens......which is the most probable thing if it is not fixed onto the cable.

The commercial dampers have a hook and loop closure in between the flaps to keep the damper on the cable.......if you are going to use a sack..open it up both ends and thread it onto the cable, if all you have is a blanket tie the corners together or something to keep it on

For gods sake don't put rocks in your damper.....use earth or sand if ya want more weight.

If ya realy want to be a bit safer use two dampers.

serioulsy we need to get all the current accepted practice right, before we introduce more complications.

cheers

butters88
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by butters88 » August 31st, 2011, 3:38 am

Sorry to drag up an old thread but if you really had to use a "hail mary strap" for your snatch straps, something like a fall arrest lanyard would be the best wouldn't it. They are rated to 1.5 tonne(+plus there safety factor of 8? i think) and they are specifically designed to reduce the speed of a falling (or in this case flying) object.
Personally i splashed out and bought dampners but i can't see why that wouldn't work really

whizzo
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by whizzo » August 31st, 2011, 9:33 am

fall arrest lanyards are made with a specific purpose in mind, the actual tear away strain is quite low and they will open up a very long way, before they stop.
It might seem to be a good idea.... but have you seen the price of a fall arrest lanyard lately.

Best to stay with the established procedure.

cheers

O-D
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by O-D » August 31st, 2011, 10:48 am

whizzo wrote:now look at that equaliser bridle......there is a certain amount of damping provided there.....unless the whole front of the chasis pulls off, it is probable that one recovery point will fail before the other....the equaliser may provide some damping as it unthreads......it might also whip back too.

now onto cable dampers.........seriosly either go and buy something proper or make something that will work properly.... my shop baught dampers cost me $25 each they are very similar to more expensive brands..$25 isn't much.
whizzo wrote: If ya realy want to be a bit safer use two dampers.
Hi whizzo, in the end I just bought a dampener from SuperCheap auto and didn't worry about the safety strap idea:

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... escription" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you said the equaliser bridle on the front bullbar already provides a certain amount of protection to the other person/vehicle but I'll be picking up a second dampener this week so I'll have one on both ends of the snatch strap, especially for when snatching without a bridle.

whizzo
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by whizzo » August 31st, 2011, 11:29 am

Yep thats the way to go.

cheers

butters88
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by butters88 » September 1st, 2011, 6:51 pm

whizzo wrote:fall arrest lanyards are made with a specific purpose in mind, the actual tear away strain is quite low and they will open up a very long way, before they stop.
It might seem to be a good idea.... but have you seen the price of a fall arrest lanyard lately.

Best to stay with the established procedure.

cheers
Whizzo correct me if i'm wrong as i can't remember but i think a fall arrest lanyard opens up by an extra 1.5m and they should reduce a fair bit of the lash from a broken strap (although like you said a lot of money)... But from what i get it seems like a fesible idea?

Aaron Schubert
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by Aaron Schubert » September 1st, 2011, 7:50 pm

Yes, they would work fine. However, what do you achieve by doing that compared to putting 2 decent blankets over each end? It takes half the time and is going to be twice as effective, not to mention the cost difference.

Aaron
Looking for somewhere to go 4WDing in WA? Check out WA 4WD Tracks

My 80 Series Landcruiser

whizzo
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by whizzo » September 1st, 2011, 9:13 pm

Again we have to go back to the fundamentals.

IF the snatch strap and the equaliser strap are both properly selected and adequate for the job......the snatch strap will break first.

If the recovery points are properly attched and properly rated...AND you are using an equaliser strap.....the snatch strap should break first.

I have posted the working out of the relative rated breaking strains a couple of times before and in detail.

What we realy need is to have worked thu our recovery gear ratings and done our best to ensure that it is the snatch strap that is going to break first.

THEN all the conventional and recommended precatuions will work and be sufficient.

Remember if the equaliser strap is even close to the snatch strap rating..the snatch strap WILL break before the equaliser strap..

BTW..I have made my view clear that I think most of us should be running equaliser straps, at least on the front of our vehicles.

cheers

larcie
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by larcie » September 21st, 2011, 1:33 pm

maybe if we're needing this much snatching set up,
we'd better stop, think about it and get the shovel out!

Snatch straps were never intended to be the be all and end all of recovery equipment.
They get used far to much because people get dumb and lazy,
then floral happens and people get hurt or die!

The snatch strap is for KISS recoveries,(Keep it simple Stupid)!
If it isn't simple, get the shovel or a winch!

whizzo
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by whizzo » September 21st, 2011, 2:09 pm

Um that is exactly the problem.....people think snatching is simple....they therefore fail to consider the many safety issues that need to be addressed regardless of the type of recovery gear.

regardless of the recovery tackle we are using we need to understand the capaicty of the various parts and the attachment points on the vehicle.

And we need to have an undrstanding of the basic physics involved and what is likley to fail, so we can adequately manage the risks.

Other wise we are simply beeing blindly ingnorant and hopeing for the best.

NO recovery is as simple as many would like to believe.

cheers

bob shovel
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by bob shovel » September 28th, 2011, 9:29 am

that video is exactly why i wouldnt go on a group trip. unless i knew the guys and it was a small size.

i love how groups always like to ride each other, instead of giving people room. your not tailgaiting in the city now!! i wouldnt last on a trip id be absuing people left right and centre. the guy pulling the other guy out and then started sliding towards the car 2 feet next to him. then scene cut. wonder if there was any damage

with your mates you know each others strengths and weaknesses (a good group would know this) and help each other out, instead of just yelling out ideas and walking away. or one hero trying call all the shots. one guy being the supervisor AKA play group leader should not be neccessary.

has anyone got footage in slow mo of a strap failing? then it would be clear for people why a bag or somehing over it is needed.

whizzo
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by whizzo » September 28th, 2011, 10:12 am

I can realy see where you are comming from...this is why most 4wd clubs and tour companies will not take any driver on a trip rated harder than scienic unless they have completed an acredited training course..


And one thing they will not RPL is the snatch recovery portion.

Let me tell you any instructor worth their salt, will hammer the safety aspects.

In recovery or rescue situations it is a sound and reasonable thing to have someone outside of the vehicles, spotting and directing......but that person needs to know what they are doing, be level headed and trustworthy.

AND of course the whole plan should have been discussed before the recovery started, including identification of risks and dangers.
I know that sounds all politicaly correct...but it is a simple matter of agreeing the method and a look arround first.

cheers

bravoboy300
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Re: Snatch strap safety

Unread post by bravoboy300 » October 4th, 2011, 8:20 pm

good info whizzo

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