Oils & Oil Additives, what's good, what works?

Discuss technical aspects of your 4WD with other owners, and share your opinions
mydmax
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by mydmax » March 2nd, 2013, 12:59 am

kenny158
I think you missed the point quite a bit. Not sure what you are trying to say but it seems a bit obscure.
It isn't the additives in the products it is aftermarket additives likely to be dumped into the already prepared products which is being discussed.
Also, changing oil is significant and does have a marked effect particularly if the old stuff was poor and not providing reasonable lubrication or sealing from being degraded.
I know people who have rung up the person who changed the oil and asked "what did you do to the car" because they DID notice a difference.
Just because you might do it every day, change oil that is, doesn't mean it is insignificant.

Altitude, ambient inducted air temp and humidity all play a big part in power output. Drag racers use charts and computer programs to get it right we make do with sensors and injection systems.
Most people work ok until they have additives in the mix.

mydmax

Bala
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by Bala » March 2nd, 2013, 7:58 am

Yes there are additives from the manufacture in all the liquids but I to am Sceptical about adding more.

I did add a can of wynns to a holden red motor once that was using a lot of oil, for the first week after the oil stayed clean and it did not use any then it went back to normal.

I am thinking about putting something in the D22 gearbox as it has a first gear synchro problem :urgh: Or it has a pressure plate problem, but at 130K km it should not have either the way its been treated.

As for engines going better after a hard run, generators are a prime example. get a decent diesel genset, 50kva say thats using oil, down on power and smoking. Low hrs so engine should still be good. They often get run at insufficient load. Put it on a load bank at 8am and at 50% load they will be struggling and blowing crap out the exhuast like an old steam train. Keep working it and turning up the load as it will take it and by 5pm you will have a set running at 110% again. with just a wisp of diesel smoke.

My D22 has a catch can and its collecting more oil than it was. The wife drives it 70km a day highway, flat roads and she drives gently. It will probably come good if I take it for a few runs up the palmerston, not revving hard, just making the engine work.

cmar
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by cmar » March 2nd, 2013, 8:38 am

I've used the metal based additives in a few engines, all of them lived long lives, and one when finally torn down for a rebuild, was actually in pretty good condition, bores, crank were still within standard spec, all it really needed was a set of rings, bearings, and valve seals. Whether it was due to the additive or not I don't know, I always use good quality oil (diesel oil) and change it regularly in my cars, which probably goes a long way towards long life, but anyway, 500,000 Km out of a Ford 250 six is not bad in any case.
Haven't owned a 2WD since 1982.

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » March 2nd, 2013, 9:47 am

mydmax wrote:Also, changing oil is significant and does have a marked effect particularly if the old stuff was poor and not providing reasonable lubrication or sealing from being degraded. I know people who have rung up the person who changed the oil and asked "what did you do to the car" because they DID notice a difference.Just because you might do it every day, change oil that is, doesn't mean it is insignificant.
Whilst you may believe that changing oil is significant, I am sorry I do not. The reason these people may be calling you to ask "what did you do to the car" is not because you changed the oil but because you have serviced the vehicle and yes I agree that new oil can make a difference but only in overall protection and lubrication properties and if you say it has such a marked difference then I would suggest shortening the service intervals. If changing oil alone offered the increases being claimed on here I am sure we will see ROO systems offering "oil change" power upgrades next to their chip & exhaust packages shortly. Furthermore, to clear up my position on the actual thread is that I would freely and liberally use these products if they were offering an answer or assistance to a certain problem, but I find it strange to be so firmly sceptical against a certain 'additive' that is in addition to your chosen oil but yet freely use said oil which already contains what could be dozens of additives.

Bala
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by Bala » March 2nd, 2013, 11:40 am

kenny158 wrote: I find it strange to be so firmly sceptical against a certain 'additive' that is in addition to your chosen oil but yet freely use said oil which already contains what could be dozens of additives.
The oils do contain additives, castrol site explains them, oils are about 85% base oil and additives.

My view is that the good oils already have all the necessary additives. I cant see any extra additives sold by castrol.

Supercheap sell shell, castrol, valvoline, but there are no additives from those companies, they are from nulon stp etc.

I think the good oils from major companies have all that they can, adding something to a good engine from another company is not something I would ever do. gearbox maybe.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 2nd, 2013, 12:35 pm

Kenny Maaaaate there is a great deal of difference between changing someone's oil and being able to observe that vehicle continuoulsy over several thousand Km.

There are an awfull lot of people running incorrect oils in their vehicles.....oils that do not meet the specifications from the manufacturer......people who have swallowed a baited advertising hook......people who are paying more for a lower specification oil.

Small diesels can suffer considerably from running the wrong oil.
Very commonly people erroniously think that a thicker oil is better and that a funky retail brand is better than the common proven diesel oils.....the result is very often, accumulation of sludge, soot clogging between the rings, excessive oil consumption, oil passing the valve guide seals due to the rocker chamber not draining properly, the muffler clogging due to the additional soot and resultant loss of power.

Many of us have realised real benifits and significant performance improvements, by changing to one of the 4 well known and proven major brand 15w40 JASO DH1 diesel spec oils, that meet or exceed the specs required.

The difference between these highly respected oils and many of the additives available is that they have been develpoed and proven by research departments of large multinational companies, and the results are proven every day by people who not only have very large investments in motors, but in other countries have independent testing resources of their own.
AND...the oil spec and performance of these oils is internationally guaranteed by the parrent companies.

The critical thing is combination of additives in the correct proportions in the oil...known as the " additive package", this is where the research is.

Compare that to a local additive manufacturer who operate what most people would be surprised to find are very small operations.......that is if they actually manufacturer their additive at all.

The problem with additives has always been side effects......creation of sludge, clogging of oil pasages, build up in disadvantagious places reactions with additives in the main oil, effects on seal materials, contamination of catilictc converters and diesel particulate filters and so on.
Or very often providing no advantage at all.

The German consumer association ( like Choice, but better resouced), a few years ago did extensive testing on diesel fuel additives......they found that most had no benificial effect whatsoever, they found only a hand full, worked better than two stroke engine oil.


have a read of this

http://skepdic.com/slick50.html

or much longer..this

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/snakeoil.htm

Some quotes from the above

Avco Lycoming, a major manufacturer of aircraft engines, states, "We have tried every additive we could find on the market, and they are all worthless."

Briggs and Stratton, renowned builders of some of the most durable engines in the world, says in their report on engine oil additives, "They do not appear to offer any benefits."

North Dakota State University conducted tests on oil additives and said in their report, "The theory sounds good- the only problem is that the products simply don't work."



cheers

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » March 2nd, 2013, 1:00 pm

whizzo wrote:The difference between these highly respected oils and many of the additives available is that they have been develpoed and proven by research departments of large multinational companies, and the results are proven every day by people who not only have very large investments in motors, but in other countries have independent testing resources of their own.AND...the oil spec and performance of these oils is internationally guaranteed by the parrent companies.
This is a good point and I am glad you made it, but we are starting to stray from the actual thread. You make this point that "these oils and additives have been developed and proven by research departments of large multinational companies" so what I summise from that is an oil and/or additive maybe/is no good because they have not been proven by research departments of large multinational companies, and yet I still have not seen any actual evidence that this particular antiwear additive on its own or accompanied by others is or can be to the detriment of said component.

WHIZZO quotes:
Avco Lycoming, a major manufacturer of aircraft engines, states, "We have tried every additive we could find on the market, and they are all worthless."

Briggs and Stratton, renowned builders of some of the most durable engines in the world, says in their report on engine oil additives, "They do not appear to offer any benefits."

North Dakota State University conducted tests on oil additives and said in their report, "The theory sounds good- the only problem is that the products simply don't work."

In relation to another earlier quote on this thread you also said that we should not buy into the advertising or otherwise hype of a product when things like "developed at over many years at substantial cost" or "braught to you at EEENNOOORRRmous EXpense". But yet when Avco Lycoming, Briggs and Stratton and North Dakota State University give their findings you buy a ticket on their bandwagon. Its seems to me that people will believe what they want to believe some open to reason and some just stuck in their ways. I mean to say who do we believe, we don't know what invested interest any of these companies had in doing the testing that they did and to just take them on there word cause it suits our argument seems naive. All companies begin with something small, whether they be retail, hospitality, mining etc and to discount there products because they are not proven in 'research departments of multinational companies' is also very naive. Maybe I am just easily lead by the advertising dollar and maybe I am just open to trying something new but not using a product until I have read the ins and outs about it, well my shop would resemble a wrecking yard rather than a workshop.

One last thing :
The critical thing is combination of additives in the correct proportions in the oil...known as the " additive package", this is where the research is.

This is true that all additives need to be used correctly but you will find the manufacturer has done some homework on this and has given some dosage amounts for use per litre of oil etc. I don't think they would just develop this product and mass produce it for sale without testing. And I like your analagy "additive package", never heard of it but will definitely use it.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 2nd, 2013, 2:00 pm

Mate did you read the two references I linked.

When Dupont ( one of the largest chemical companies in the world with massive R&D capability) who lets face it have a vested interest in selling as much of their product as they can AND realy should know what the product they invented is good for, come out with a statement like "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines." .
AND for decades have only sold Teflon for use in automotive engine oil under duress and without trade mark approval.

ya have to ask yaself some serious questions.

The formulation of engine oils is most certainly central to the whole debate....because for any aftermarket additive to be worthwhile, the original engine oil must in some way be deficient.

Follow back several posts to my discussion of engine oils of the past and how certain additives that may have been purchased as stand alone additives, being mainstreamed into the current generation engine oils...well the viable ones.
I hope you will realise how this is relivent.

As far as having never encountered the term "additive package"....all I can say is you have not done much reading about oil...the term is frequently used in discussion, oil spec sheets and techical adveretising.

cheers

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » March 2nd, 2013, 3:16 pm

whizzo wrote:The formulation of engine oils is most certainly central to the whole debate....because for any aftermarket additive to be worthwhile, the original engine oil must in some way be deficient.


Thankyou for using these terms I have been looking for the right words all day.You are absolutely correct, oils are ALWAYS deficient in some area and that is why additives(whether added at the refinery or at the place of application) are so popular and useful. And the above questioned additive (the one the thread is about) is just another in a long line of said products. Whether the oil companies choose to put it into their oil from their refineries is irrelevant, what is relevent is whether this product works in the application you have in front of you. Anyone who believes that the oil they have choosen, even the "big 4" as you put it are going to satisfy every need that they have for lubrication in every area that it may be used is mistaken, there will always be a situation where they will be lacking and can be assisted by an additive.

And I am more the wiser about the term 'additive package' thankyou WHIZZO and you are right I don't do much reading about oils, I don't have time for that I just call the advice lines of said lubricant and ask the friendly consultant on the other end I don't have the 'sceptisism' that some have in regards to their information. If it meets my requirement I use it I don't need written proof of it. Additives and the like are not a conspiracy nor are they voodoo, they do a particular job and have a valid and important place in our market.

In an effort to keep this debate on topic answer me this: If the oil companies(regardless of branding) all added this product to their lubricants at the refinery would you be so sceptical of it or take it on face value it is needed and important to the lubricant?

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 2nd, 2013, 3:34 pm

If find it very interesting that someone who by his own admission does not do much reading about oil and depends on advice lines for his knoweledge could be so convinced that commercially formulated oils could be so inadequate.

cheers

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » March 2nd, 2013, 4:31 pm

I never stated that oils are "so inadequate", i stated that they can be inadequate in certain areas (and this is why we need additives). Meanwhile I spent some time reading the links you posted and can see why you like them, its like a mecca for all 'oil additive conspiracy theorists'. In all my reading all I got from them was that PTFE and zinc-d is apparently no good (although zinc-d can be useful in extreme stress situations) but a test done on a chevy 6 cyl had gains in HP and fuel economy and a reduction in friction, so "go figure". The second link was much of the same that PTFE and zinc-d was also no good but they had no Hard facts(other than their own) to back up there claims, their only line of defense was that "well we mighten have the hard facts(other than our own) to back up our claims but neither do the oil companies". To be honest in my 19yrs of being a mechanic(has it really been that long) I have never had a need to delve so deep into a subject to know whether I will use a $20 additive in an engine, transmission etc. But I digress, everybody is entitled to make their own call and I respect yours as one of caution, but if I had a dollar for everytime I used or recommended someone use an additive in their vehicle and it has had the desired effect I can guarentee I wouldn't be in that workshop everyday, and further to that they aren't parked up in my workshop waiting for re-builds either. Oh and WHIZZO whilst I enjoy our to and fro's one last thing: You stated that you will always remain sceptical because there is alot of B$LLSH&T out there, you are right, I just spent an hour reading alot of it particularly the links you posted. Have a good one.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 2nd, 2013, 5:59 pm

Dear oh dear.....its pretty plain you don't understand what is written in the links I provided, the second one back its facts up with references.

Just your sumation of Zinc D, shows how little of the whole additive issue you understand.

Zinc D is and has been a very common additive in good quality engine oils for quite some time, it has a proper function, is highly effective and is an important additive, in the proper amounts. HOWEVER, As an aftermarket additive in high concentrations it just pretty unreliable at producing a result and in many cases pointless.
The only reason oil manufacturers are turning away from it in modern formulations is that it causes contamination in cat converters and diesel particulate filters, if the concentration is too high.

This is a known issue and one that would influence oil choice.......for example, a JASO DH1 rated diesel spec oil will almost certainly have a significant amount of Zinc D in it where a JASO DH2 rated oil, intended for engines using DPF will either have less or a an alternative additive.
Some will quite reasonably argue that the later generations of oil that still maintain significant zinc D and similar additives are better oils than the very latest oils that have less or none at all due to the Cat converter and DPF issues.

Did you miss the part where several different tests have proven that while PTFE may reduce measured fritcion in the engine this does not necessarily equate to a reduction in wear.

There was a time when I was very pro additive.....in the past 5 years I have learned a hell of a lot about oils and additves what is in them and how they work......the more I learn the less inclined I am to use additives and the more sceptical of them I am.
There are some additive that may work......but there are a hell of a lot out there that are very expensive bottle of do nothing or worse.
Believe me when I say I am also as scheptical about claims made on over priced retail oils, that when you look into them do not spec up very well at all.

cheers

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 2nd, 2013, 6:33 pm

Something helpfull for the original poster.
What I have resolved to do, is to meke better oil choices and not rely on using aftermarket additives to supliment lower spec oils.

For those that can be bothered.
have a look at the various oils that you may use or seem to be funky, then forget all the sales hype but compare the oil specs that they meet with the oil specs met by the top 4 diesel spec oil families.
Shell rimular, Caltex dello, Mobil devlac and Castrol RX super...all of which are diesel spec mixed fleet oils that will run very well in both diesel and petrol engines....all can be had for $100 for a 20 liter drum.
Unless you have a very late model vehicle, they will easily meet or well exceed the oil spec required.

It gets better...just about every one of those manufacturers has a retail packaged oil, heavily promoted as wonderfull and marvelous and selling for more, that is in fact a lower spec and meets nowhere near the wide range of specs the 4 mentined above do.

The best thing you can do for your small diesel engine is put a good quality correct spec oil in it.

Do not believe the FUD ( fear, uncertainty and doubt) that all the marketing departments , especially the additive sprukers circulate with abandon.

Change ya oil and filters on the recommended schedule and 500 000 Km is well within reach.

cheers

underseige
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by underseige » March 5th, 2013, 6:44 pm

as with most of u i am very skeptical of oil additives but heres my short story of one. im running marks adapters gearmaster crawler gears in my sierra. they knocked 500 bucks off the set because the noise was putting people off them. the noise is like a whining super charger to be honest. before people start saying that the gears are out of mesh they were fitted by a pro and have since done 20 or so thousand kays over all sorts of terrain. from lake eyre to the hi country in vic. some mates gave me a bottle of their lucas oil stabiliser to giv a try. the noise was significantly less but still loud. its not a cure all but for noise reduction it works. id guess because its so thick so it wouldnt do fuel economy or power any favours.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 5th, 2013, 11:08 pm

All the oil stabiliser is doing is effectivly rasing the viscosity...so running thicker oil would do more or less the same thing.

Running any of the friction modifiers...Teflon, Moly or even graphiter would reduce the noise a little ..but it wont change the findamental issue which is the way the gears are cut.

cheers

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