Oils & Oil Additives, what's good, what works?

Discuss technical aspects of your 4WD with other owners, and share your opinions
dhc4ever
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Re: fuel and oil additives

Unread post by dhc4ever » October 3rd, 2010, 11:00 am

Whizzo,
you stated,
"Last oil change I dry cranked the engine a couple of revs and got quite a bit more oil to drain out."
Please tell me you didnt mean turn the engine over with the sump plug out to flush the last remaining dregs from the oil pump and galleries.

If this IS what you meant, please look up the operating principles behind how crank and connecting rod bearings work and the important work pressurized oil does in these items.
Might I suggest you don't do this again.

As to the extra sludge/oil coming out after the flushing concentrate is used, using your analogy of a chemical reaction/heat expanding the volume coming out, this would seem to be a constant if this was the case. However its not. I didnt experience any extra amount coming out after draining the oil and flushing agent. I put this down to my engine having had a pretty good maintenance regimen before I bought it,(which it did have) so no noticeable build up of sludge. Those that experience the extra coming out would appear to have had engine that didn't receive oil changes at the correct interval or do a lot of short trips.

olly
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Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by olly » February 26th, 2013, 6:52 pm

My father in law has just started using this stuff (AW10 Antiwear) in all his trucks fluids ie engine,diffs and gearbox and he was telling about it. So I did a bit of reasearch on the old web and found that it has a lot of benefits eg quieter smoother running, better economy ect.

I was just wondering if anyone else has heard of or is using this product in their vehicles and if they are what sort of opinions do they have about it. Good or bad it doesn't matter.

Here's a link to their website
http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_pr ... ?ItemId=28

Chees
Olly

mydmax
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by mydmax » February 26th, 2013, 8:53 pm

olly
I am not sold on the claims of most products until the can be proven. If it is good to put it into lots of mechanical things i would want to know what it consists of and not just believe the sellers claims

Some re graphite based, some teflon based, etc etc.
Not all antiwear products suit all situations. The ability to stay in suspension of the oil it is added to, is a factor which has to be utilized to enable it to be continually fed through the moving parts.
If it is of a size which won't go through oil filters then it is just collected by the filter and not much benefit to the engine or filter fed gearbox.

You say it has a lot of benefits, but who is stating the benefits, the seller? or an independent authority in the lubrication field.
The claims of additives giving ie quieter, smoother, better economy, longer life has been around as long as i can remember.
If those product were that good why do they disappear and then reappear later with a different name?
If it was that startling, ALL oil companies would be using those additives in their oils to gain product advantage over rivals.
Then they would all be doing it.

The fact that a company who sells it also sells an engine flush to shift carbon and feed it through your precision engine bearings is of concern to me.

mydmax

nilla60
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by nilla60 » February 27th, 2013, 10:11 pm

My uncle sold similar stuff in his workshop.

The old man asked, "So how well does it work?"

He replied, "Great! I get $5 per bottle!"

mydmax
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by mydmax » February 27th, 2013, 10:25 pm

Nilla 60
I like your concise way of getting the message across. A good example.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » February 28th, 2013, 1:06 pm

While I am generally sceptical to the point that people frequently refeer to me as synical.

I have seen good results with SOME oil additives over 30 years of playing arround with cars and stuff....but I have also seen some pretty ordinary additives that where, either never good or have been overtaken by the general state of technology or better additives.

I have seen low friction plastics (teflon and the like) products work very well in engine oil in older motors.

I am very suspicious of any additive that is added to all oils in all applications.

Changing the friction properties in gearbox oil for example can cause issues with the syncros, that work on friction.

Likewise if you have a limited slip diff...that also works on friction.

One particular product known for its "copper lead molecules", was recemmended in any and all oils.....hell there have been some things gummed up by that stuff.....and its a technology that has been overtaken decades ago.

Before the " teflon revolution" in the early 80's, there where lots of graphite and molibdim disulphide fricton reduction products on the market, I remember scraping half an inch of the stuff out of the bottom of the oil filter canister in my mums Morris 1100, after this stuff was used every oil change during the warranty period as specified by UK motors.
That technology too has been over taken.

There was a very good case for friction reduction and stabilising additives in oil and octain improvers in fuel in the 50s, 60s, 70s and right into the early 80s.

But the use of finely ground soft metals, graphites and the like was main streamed in standard specification engine oils in the 80's, and in a far more developed and measured form...and has probaly been overtaken....current good specification oils have a very strong detergent, friction reduction, stabilisation package standard....and that package consists of things we would have baught as an aftermarket additive in the past.

It would take quite a bit of, good evidence to convince me to use an oil additive these days...and that means detail about what it contains, how it works and independednt tests.

If its ya engine you are interested in....here comes the cracked record again....the best thing you can do is put a modern correctly specified oil in the sump.

Unless you have a very late model car you cant go past one of the top spec, mixed fleet, diesel spec oils like, Shell rimular, Mobil devlac, Caltex dello or Castrol RX super (recently upgraded).

ANd ya wont need an oil flushing chemical either.....get where I am comming from ;)

Cheers

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » February 28th, 2013, 4:12 pm

This stuff 'reads' really well, the testing that has been conducted shows a significant reduction in running temps on transmissions and differentials (NOT SUITABLE FOR LSD'S), also showed between 5-15% horsepower gains in both petrol and diesel engines and it does mention that weak or worn limited slip diffs may lose some capability due to the friction reduction so best not to use it. There seems to be a plethera of additives used in our lubricants today whether for engines,transmissions, diffs, final drives etc so I personally have no problem with using something like this although there will always be sceptics. I would be very interested to hear more about this additive as it seems to have some very positive benefits to its use.

nilla60
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by nilla60 » February 28th, 2013, 7:24 pm

Yes, that's the key thing. To do the research and make sure you know how and why something works and if it is applicable in your circumstance. I will always look up the details but it's often pretty hard to get deeper than the vendor's own literature.

I recently did that for organic coolant (mechanic did me a favour on wife's car and replaced the coolant anyway) and ended up having to use the Materials Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) to get past all the marketing speak and find out what it was actually made from.

Bottom line, do your own reading and make your own decision before putting something into your car (or yourself for that matter).

In this case, I know the oils I use already have additives, so I'd want to know what the vendor is putting in that the oil maker is not, and why the oil maker decided not to.

typhoeus
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by typhoeus » February 28th, 2013, 9:27 pm

well, I had good results with nulon. I had a liteace wagon once, in which I ran nulon 60000km additive. One day the trans oil cooler in the bottom of the radiator decided to leak. So, trans oil in the coolant, and coolant in the auto. I was driving it at the time, and I saw the temp guage go off the scale in 30 seconds flat. I immediately pulled over, and turned it off, except it wouldnt turn off! . . it started running backwards, making a horrible sound and filling up with smoke and being an auto, I couldnt stall it, so I got the missus & kids out quick, lifted the lid, pulled off the aircleaner and forced a rag into the carb, It stopped after a minute or so, pinging and ticking loudly. It took another 40 minutes to cool the radiator with water from a tap nearby. when I finally got the radiator cap off, it was full of pink cream.
To cut a long story short, I managed to get it home, cleaned out and new radiator & trans in , (and was $2k poorer for it,) the engine had a plastic sensor melted into the head,the oil had carbonised in the rocker cover, but after a flush and oil change the engine was ok . I was almost certain it would be cooked, but it wasnt, I believe because of the nulon preventing metal to metal contact during the "abuse of running backwards. It ran perfectly fine for at least another 3 years , until I sold it.
Having owned all manner of vehicles from old bombs & paddock bashers in my youth to more decent vehicles later, Ive blown quite a few engines over the years, none have survived that degree of overheating, without seizing. A sceptic may say I was just lucky, but from my experience, I believe the nulon saved it.

HZJ75_John
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by HZJ75_John » February 28th, 2013, 9:40 pm

I've never been a believer in oil additives to conceal noise etc. if there is a noise or your gearbox is difficult to operate etc you should fix it rather than mask the problem with something that takes the noise away. Consequently you'll forget about the noise and your 4wd will likely ***** itself at the most inconvenient time.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 1st, 2013, 11:54 am

ALL the additives and gadgets claim improvements AND produce figures, that look good on paper...of course they do.

This 5 to 15% gain ( or even 20%) in horespower gain or in economy is a favorite....you'll see similar claims for devices ranging from do nothing buggery boxes with a few magnets in them thru to well documented aftermarket exhaust systems.......lots of people make very similar claims........truth is, a lot of engines will gain this vague 5 to 15% just from being given an oil change with a good high detergent oil and a sustained hard highway run....

5 to 15% is very vague and hard to prove or disprove and many people will simply invent such an improvement in their mind, because they want to believe.

Hell take the same vehicle and the same dyno, and you'll get more than a 5% variation in the power measured purely on the basis of ambient air temperature....people have been fiddling dyno results by various means since the things where invented.

5 to 15% is well within the normal engineering variation for a variety of reasons.....cars are not like high end precision engineering no one claims performance to 0.5% or 1% tolerances.

Then there are the claims of the miraculous..........vehicles running what people claim to be extrordinary KM lives, but to those of us who have been arround high milage vehicles are pretty ordinary.......and the recoveries from disaster.

They are all a common theme, all the additives and devices make the same sorts of claims......both the products that work and those that are total a total con.

Yes I have seen some near mirraculous things with engines and the low friction plastics like Teflon & PTFE......particularly in the early days........engines you would expect to seaze, but didn't.........running engines without oil and other stunts.
But I have not seen that sort of stunt or claim for nearly 20 years.

Have consumer laws and legal ramifications caught up with the additive makers.......or have the compounds they used changed...may be caught up in the "green fog".....perhaps the old compounds or their manufacturing processes, depleated the ozone layer, caused harmfull UV rays or some such...none of them are telling.

I remain sceptical.

cheers

dod28
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by dod28 » March 1st, 2013, 2:57 pm

Continuing on with the 5-15% thing, if you added everything that claims these figures to your engine, then according to those claims you could easily double the power of your engine.

Hilux ln106 stock = 60kw
turbo 45% increase =87kw
oil additive 10%increase =95.7kw
fuel additive 10% increase =105.3kw
Exhaust upgrade 10%increase =115.8kw
Snorkel 10%increase =127.4kw
Brock polarizer 10%increase =140.1kw
HiClone 10%increase =154.1kw
Hi flow air filter 10%increase =169.5kw

I'm pretty certain most people would agree that it just isn't possible to get those sort of numbers out of the 3l engine so that means some of the claimed figures must be wrong. Whizzo said the claims of 5-15% are hard to prove or disprove, which in isolation might be correct but when tabled like above it becomes very easy to disprove most of the claims.

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » March 1st, 2013, 3:09 pm

Whizzo

Firstly, whilst I respect anyone's views on any topic trying to convince people that an oil change and a so-called "sustained hard highway run" whatever that is will see the same results as a product that has been developed over many years at a susbstantial cost with the facts and figures to back there claims in just insulting, anyone who believes this probably believes in healing crystals as well.

Secondly, a 5-15% power gain in relation to any product is neither hard nor difficult to prove, a simple dynomometer test will definitively prove this. This next one is a dozzy:"5 to 15% is well within the normal engineering variation for a variety of reasons.....cars are not like high end precision engineering no one claims performance to 0.5% or 1% tolerances. I am very sure that if I was too walk into my mechanical engineer and told him that the testing on his multi-million dollar piece of equipment was within 5-15% of what he or the OEM expected it to be then he would be over the moon, I mean to say this is within 'normal engineering variation' isn't it(insert riotus laughter here) and as far as cars not being 'high end precision' engineering I am sure enzo ferrari will be very happy to hear that.

In closing, yes all additives and gadgets will make claims to improve various aspects of a product, how else are they going to sell them but the proof can be read via their fact or specification sheets that can be easily found on-line or recieved upon request and if you still don't believe in a produsts benefits once you have viewed these facts well that is your choice.. To simply be a sceptic because 'the oil companies don't put it in the oil so neither will I' is a very antiquaited and narrow minded view of something. Where as hard facts will always win the debate for me. Just one more thing, I may have picked WHIZZO's claims to pieces here and I mean no disrespect to him/her or anyone else I just think that people come to this forum to learn about different things and we should do our best to provide accurate and non-misleading information.

@DoD28. You make a valid point but just remember that the figures you use are at the upper end of the improvement figures that may have been provided for said upgrade. I don't believe anyone would buy into the argument that you could 'double' your engine output by using these improvements on there own. Even if you halve the claimed increases that you have stated that is still a very healthy and probably more realistic end result, but as I said a simple dynomometer test would definitvely prove each case.

whizzo
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by whizzo » March 1st, 2013, 5:45 pm

When was the last time you saw a vehicle power or torque specification....not a mechanical clearance...a vehicle power or torque specification expressed in terms of persentage error.....or for that matter a general vehicle specification expressed in proper engineering terms at all....when was the last time you saw a common or garden vehicle manufacturer, provide individual power and torque figures on individual engines.

The fact is there is an unavoidable and fairly large in engineering terms, variation from one vehicle to the next and a significant variation in preformance due to a variety of factors, including temperature and humidity.
If you want a factor thats very very significantly and badly effects internal combustion engines, look at the effects of aptmospheric pressure due to altitude........take ya typical modern normally aspirated fuel injected engine from the beaches of sydney and drive it up the snowy( 2000 meter odd elivation), by the time its negociated the dirt track to the top of Kosisoko its lost 20% of its power due to altitude.....if its running a carby, a hell of a lot more because the jetting will be wrong.

If you doubt that fresh oil and a good hard drive, can significantly improve engine power output, you have obviolulsy never taken a choked up car off the "triangle of death" ( home , school, shops) and taken it for a good flog up the highway.

Small diesel engines like we have in our 4wds suffer when driven short and light, especially with the wrong oil....the rings clog up with soot and compression suffers.......take that vehicle out for a good long hard drive, especially with the right oil and the performance of the engine will improve significantly......the light viscosity, high detergent oil will wash the carbon from behind the rings, they will bed in again properly, compression will improve and thus power output .

I can tell you first hand it is true of my diesel hilux, and many others will testify likewise.

I don't think I have ever owned a vehicle that did not go a lot better after a long run.

5% is a pretty small variation in real world engineering outcomes.

AS for the product being "developed at over many years at substantial cost", don't make me laugh......

As the sprukers of old would say...."Braught to you at EEENNOOORRRmous EXpense"

There may be some additive manufacturers that have dome some serious R&D, or perhaps a single talented bloke who is a refugee from a major chemical or oil company....but there are several out there selling nothing more than old rope, where what R&D was done in decades past........there are others that are simply buying commonly available substances and mixing them all in a vat out the back and calling it :D wonderfull :D .....their entire operation would be worth less than the contract to empty the bins in the R&D department of a major oil or chemical company.

In the chepaer end of the market its reasonably easy to make a fairly simple Teflon/PTFE style oil brew, you'll probably find a basic workable formular in the application notes from Dow Chemcal, DuPont or similar.

You can just put a bit of teflon/PTFE/whatever, in all sorts of things and produce a fairly easy friction reduction outcome..in fact there is lots of it out there, all the major oil companies will sell you a PTFE/teflon fortified grease......but if an actual benifit flows from putting it into other things is another question.

There are a couple of companies that have been in the additive business a long time, do actually have some smarts and do produce a viable product.

But there are still some snake oil merchants out there too.



Back to the 5 to 15% gain in power claim....just think on this.....reduction in friction is not going to produce significant power gain.......to get significant power gain in an engine we have to chnage something significant....we cant be changing engine capacity, we wont be improving airflow, we wont be changing the fuel value, fuel mixture, the ignition timing or valve timimng...so what will give this power gain...the only possible thing is restoring lost compression.

Now is that due to the additional detergent in the additive, or because the active ingredient is making the rings seal better.

Seriolusly...think about this.

I remain generally suspicious about additives.

cheers

kenny158
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Re: Oil additives - AW10 Antiwear

Unread post by kenny158 » March 1st, 2013, 6:01 pm

I'm sorry WHIZZO you are just WRONG. Additives like it or not are here to stay and you of all people who bang on about using the right oil and blah blah blah don't you think that these oils have additives in them already, whether it be viscousity stabilisers, cleaning agents, soot management agents etc and do you xpect us to believe that we should call the oil help line and disect every 'additive' put in the oil prior to use GIVE ME A BREAK. You also quoted that "to get a significant power increase you need to change something significant", well mate changing oil ain't significant champ I do it every day and it is certainly far from significant. A mention was also given to a loss of power against an increase in altitude, this has been proven times over but your post listed a change in ambient temperature not altitude so maybe somewhere your wires are crossed, again nothing personal just trying to get the correct information out there. I put it to mate, you WILL be using more additives in your vehicle than you know about, from fuel to oil they will be dozens and yet the wheels are still goin round and round.

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