What type of rust protection to buy?

Discuss technical aspects of your 4WD with other owners, and share your opinions
TroopiePete
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Re: electronic rust preventer

Unread post by TroopiePete » December 22nd, 2013, 10:13 pm

LOL

The block of Zinc would only work if you intend on keeping the truck immersed in water!
There is a whole school of good and bad feelings regarding ERPS but must admit to be currently in the throws of installing one myself on the Troopy, it's a unit from ebay and cost a fraction of the name brand units.
From what i understand it places a Positive 30 something volts on the electrodes..
For the cost of a little under the $200 mark I think it's worth a try..

Call me stingy but I am not going to pay over $800 bucks just for a name!
Peter Richens - VK4FSD
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River City 4WD Club - President 2010 - 2014 http://www.rivercity4wdclub.net

gunk
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Re: electronic rust preventer

Unread post by gunk » December 22nd, 2013, 10:46 pm

http://www.ruststop.net/electronic-rust-protection

This is the only one I've found that I believe would work. Even if the capacitive coupling types worked according to the way they describe, it would only protect the areas where there is paint and it is in good condition, which is exactly where you don't really get trouble so they are absolutely pointless.

SWB
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Re: electronic rust preventer

Unread post by SWB » December 22nd, 2013, 11:36 pm

I have had one of the two popular brands on my various fourbies over the years, because I have transferred it fom one vehicle to the next, my thinking is that I will otherwise lose the value of yet-another accessory.

And in all cases I have not suffered any paricular rusting. I dunno if this is because I have not had the vehicles for that many years/decades or because I generally take good care of my fourbies, especially after beach trips. So who can tell if the units are doing anything at all.

I subscribe to the idea that those who go the extra mile in purchasing such devices are likely to look after their vehicles anyway and hence suffer little if no rust. No way will I leave my fourby at home for long which has had salty water/sand on it without a thorough wash.

There are examples of coucil surf-rescue vehicles and fishos who are sponsored by them, but they dont keep the vehicles very long either.

So after all these years I am not yet convinced. Given the substatial lack of verified scientific studies and the fact that most of these devices (if not all) are actually banned in some markets, due to false claims.

gunk
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Re: Electronic rust protection systems

Unread post by gunk » December 23rd, 2013, 9:18 am

AFAIK there is not a single thing in this world that will kill/counteract/deactivate/neturalise salt.

TroopiePete
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Re: Electronic rust protection systems

Unread post by TroopiePete » December 23rd, 2013, 12:02 pm

Think we will have to start watering this thread down a little, maybe see if we cannot dilute the topic a little and see if we can't get to the crust of the problem :lol:
Peter Richens - VK4FSD
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River City 4WD Club - President 2010 - 2014 http://www.rivercity4wdclub.net

HillsForThrills
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Re: Electronic rust protection systems

Unread post by HillsForThrills » December 23rd, 2013, 12:13 pm

^ :lol: :lol: Subtle Pete, subtle...

gunk
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Re: Electronic rust protection systems

Unread post by gunk » December 23rd, 2013, 1:48 pm

I posted that in reply to a post about the various washes that claim to neutralise salt, now that the threads have been combined it doesn't show the context.

whizzo
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Re: Electronic rust protection systems

Unread post by whizzo » December 29th, 2013, 11:26 am

This neutralising salt, is an interesting concept.

This neutralisation.....it this a chemical term or a marketing one.

In chemical terms, it may not be a correct term....because salts result from the neutralisation when combining an acid with an alkali......so it may be possible to convert salt chemically to something else....most likley another type of salt.....but I doubt that this neutralisation is a correct scientific term.

On the other hand, neutralising the effects of salt.....ahh well that is fairly commonly done.....all of our modern radiators have chemicals to controll the effects of the products of various chemical reactions.
Most of this revolves arround controlling the PH so that the acid or alkali state of the radiator fluid is unfavorable for corrosion, these are known as PH buffers.
But this state varies depending on the metal in question, and all of the products as far as I know that are used as these PH buffers in unfavorable concentrations or when spent become corrosive.

I have had quite an interest in these "salt busting" products.....it is plain that in certain situations, on certain materials and for a certain time they are effective...but there is never a free lunch.

In a radiator for example it is relativly easy to maintain an effective chemical ballance and thus a very effective anti corrosion performance, because it is a closed system and we know about what is in there and can controll it.
That said....ALL and I mean ALL...the radiator treatments when they have exceeded there usefull life and the inhibiting chemicals are spent, become corrosive.....this is whay we must replace our coolant regularly.

In an outside environment that is pretty well uncontrolled, where water, heat, air and light can all have an uncontrolled effect on the chemicals used..I have some questions.

Salt is pretty persistent on surfaces and in textures and crevices, even on plain hard impervious surfaces such as glass, it does not seem to wash off completely with just plain water.
And remember the "salt" in question my not be just a simple single salt, it may be a combination of various salts and minerals and other stuff, some of it corrosive in its self.

It occurs to me that the primary role for most of these " salt busting" products is little more than a detergent......a little more than a deteregent..but not much.
A good combination of detergents and water softeners, will improve the removal of salts and quite a few other things no end....this sort of concoction is fairly simple to make at home in a bucket and easy enough to test.

Some of the common chemicals used as water softeners will remove things like rust, scale and corrosion just by soaking.....but remember all of these common chemicals in some form will also be corrosive......even many common fairly mild houshold detergents can be quite corrosive under certain circumstances.

What is needed is a brew that has an effective deteget action, washes off clean or at least leaves a relativly neutral residue.

It is the claims of ongoing corrosion prevention or salt "neutralisation" that interests me.

How long does this corrosion prevention or neutralisation last and what is the result after the chemicals are spent or lost?

Does regular re-application continue the effectivness and can spent chemical from repeated re-application build up and promote corrosion.

Now I have looked at a few of these "Salt busting" products, and there are new ones comming out from time to time...it occurs to me they are all very similar....they all claim to be non poisonous and not harfull to the environment in the mixed form.....but none of them seem to reveal their contents specifically...not even in the MSDS.

It occurs to me that the chemicals involved may in fact be relativly mundane.

I have two suspects.

Washing soda...sodium carbonate.......not caustic soda, bicarb soda, baking soda or some other soda.
I have washing soda in electrolitic rust removal baths, its fairly benign, even used in some foods, and it seems to have a mild anti corrosive effect on steel..especially in conjunction with electrolisis.
It is commonly used as a water softener, detergent booster and as a mild scale remover.
It would act as a salt neutraliser, by buffering more toward the alkaline side....the mechanism of some salts in corrosion is the production of acid.....neutralising the acid "neutralises" the corrosion....AHH but in neutralising that acid..what other salt results.....AHH...and where does that go...AHHH
Adding a little washing soda to a bucket or pressure sprayer with some common diswashing detergent seems to have promise as a post trip vehicle and boat wash.
In concentrated form it can be corrosive to aluminium and strip...um...certain paints and varnishes....the oil bassed paints may not go well.

Borax...sodium borate
Borax is another one of those old multipurpose chemicals....good for all sorts of stuff from curing athletes foot to greeing up the leaves on ya citrus........it too as a PH buffer, water softener and sale remover and is used in many of the same applications.
Borax was ( maybee still is) used in a lot of radiator coolant addives and functioned as the PH buffer, water softener and chemical neutraliser.
It seems to be a littyle friendlier to the non ferous metals.

maybe a combination of the above two.....maybe there is a less common chemical involved.

I'd be interested in further thaughts.

cheers

gunk
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Re: Electronic rust protection systems

Unread post by gunk » December 29th, 2013, 5:57 pm

I checked out there MSDS as well, nothing of any help which means it's probably something that can be ingested without any real issues.

I reckon you could be on to something with the sodium carbonate.

scrabbe
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What type of rust protection to buy?

Unread post by scrabbe » February 4th, 2014, 8:36 pm

Hi guys, just picked up a 09 D-max the other week and need to get it rustproofed. Hearing a lot of mixed things about which type to get, whether its under body spray or electronic or to get both? I will be taking it on the beach once a month and it only has very little surface rust at the moment.

If anyone has any suggestions about both types and if the electronic actually works that would be awesome.

Cheers

mydmax
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Re: What type of rust protection to buy?

Unread post by mydmax » February 4th, 2014, 9:07 pm

scrabbe
Most of the spray on rust stuff is ok, something is better than nothing, however, since you are going to try and rust it by hitting the beach once a month, I would get some small dia high pressure nylon tube, at least the length of the vehicle and attach a spray to the end, or block the end and drill a few fine holes IE 1mm dia in a radial manner.

Carefully push the tubing down inside the chassis from one end until it is at the other end. Then pressure feed the tubing (and drag it back out) with a BodywaX or sealer or anti rust liquid which will dry in there and effectively coat the inner of the chassis.
That should then prevent the TIN WORM from eating the chassis from the inside and it also allows you to hose the inside of the chassis, again at a high angle, so the sand and salt is able to be removed.

The spray is best done on grass (someone elses) with vehicle raised up high one end and a drain bucket at the exit holes under the chassis. Not a good look on concrete with all the dripping excess.

The outside of the chassis is nice and black but the inside? did anyone think about the inside during production?

Shaker4x4
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Re: What type of rust protection to buy?

Unread post by Shaker4x4 » February 4th, 2014, 10:28 pm

Can't do much without rust protection. Beach is bad no matter what you do. You can try to protect it though and it'll last longer.

For everything, including beach Heavy Duty Lanotec. The general purpose is only really good for lubrication and spraying in chains and garden sheers etc. The Heavy Duty dries tacky and can be removed with citric spray (much the same way Shower Power actually works!) :rolleyes:

The good idea of dragging a tube back through the chassis with protectant spraying out he end, what about PVC tube with a 360 degree course sprinkler nozzle jammed and super glued into the end of the tube might work? Everywhere else a splatter gun is good if you know how to do it all properly.

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GBC
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Re: What type of rust protection to buy?

Unread post by GBC » February 6th, 2014, 5:21 am

Another vote lanotec although we use the gp in a garden sprayer. Simple and good. We also use it industrially to treat old steel billboards.

kiteman83
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ELECTRONIC RUST PROTECTION???

Unread post by kiteman83 » March 24th, 2014, 6:26 pm

I am looking at putting electronic rust protection on my new 2014 bt 50 and have been doing research and wondering if its even worth putting an erps system or couplertec system on my ute as im sceptical that they even work.
PLEASE HELP as i dont want to waste $800 on crap

vk3aif
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Re: What type of rust protection to buy?

Unread post by vk3aif » March 25th, 2014, 6:11 pm

I'd be sceptical too, keep your money in your pocket is my advice.

Have look at this link too.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=150864&p=1766185&hilit=erp#p1766185

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