TD42 Pump on the way out

[BIGDAVET86]

My TD42 powered 95 coil cab has recently (last 15k) begun blowing more black smoke and fuel ecconomy is getting worse (now at 15l/100km, mixed highway and suburban driving, worse with some 4x4 in the mix), and power seems to be down also the oil pressure light is taking longer to turn off in the morning.
It has done 270k and got new injectors a year ago. Last service she got new fuel and air filters.
Im thinking she must be down on compression, so its the rings or valve stem seals, correct?

Question: If it is rings would it be worth tearing it down and doing a major rebuild, ie bearings, pistons, liners, head recon, crank grind etc.
or can you usually get away with just doing the rings.

IF its vavle stem seals will that mean a full recon of the head?

A mate of mine is a diesel fitter and he reckons that it would be piece a piss to rebuild, any thoughts on that, cos i thought that it was pretty hardcore rebuilding a TD42 at home?

Anything else it could be? Let us know what ya think

Cheers
Dave

[fullmetaljacket]

black smoke is caused by incomplete combustion, over fueling, or restricted intake (you have fitted a new air filter so you should be in the clear with this one), when you had the injectors serviced/replaced did you get the injector pump looked at or adjusted as well?
First thing I'd do is check the tappet adjustment, its easy and cheap (free if you DIY) then work from there

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

What with Black Smoke and bad fuel economy, I'd guess that FMJ hit the money on that one! Check to make sure that you don't have a restricted air intake, blocked snorkel or air filter, collapsed hoses or even someone left a rag in the inlet manifold first, then do the Tappets before having a look at the fuel adjustment, you might find that the piece of sealing wire or the seal/cover on the adjust screw is no longer there!! That means that someone has adjusted it (was it you??) and it is quite possible that it is overfuelling! If you don't know how to turn the fuel down, ask here, there are enough around who know, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, do it in TINY LITTLE INCREMENTS!! Nothing like 1/2 turn at a time!!

Good Luck!

[oondy]

Before i turboed mine, it all of a sudden started using a crap load of fuel and blowing a heap of smoke, and this was up in the kimberley's where fuel wasn't so cheap.......it was up to 16L/100km where at the start of the trip best i got was 10L/100km. and yes i was replacing my air filter regularly so it wasn't that. I had never touched the injector pump at this stage, it even had the tamper proof cap thingo on it.

i took it into MTQ in adelaide and they just backed the fuel off a tiny bit, didn't even lose any power at the wheels. so the pumps can start to wear out and go out of adjustment, even without any actual change in setting on the fuel screw.

After i had this done, it was back to anywhere from 10-12.5L/100km and that was sitting on 120kph.

cheers

OONDY

[Patrolling Paddy]

Dave I get the 15L/100 as a norm in my Patrol so really it isn't really bad yet( remembering mine is far from standard). I would be checking the air filter first, as mentioned, and then check the tappets, as mentioned, if this still doesen't resolve the issue try spending on a dyno tune as this will get it to peak performance and if it then is still no good then you can start looking at more expensive options.
If your mate is a diesel fitter see if he can get hold of a compression tester for you (a diesel one) and check your compression too before the dyno and definately before a rebuild of any sort.

Unless the engine has been abused at some stage then it should be good for 500k easy

Just my 2c

PP

[BIGDAVET86]

Cheers for all the responses guys, can anyone tell me where this the adjustment screw is and i will see if the tamper seal is still intact. I will do the tappets this week some time and see what happens.

When i had the injectors done i asked about getting the fuel turned up a bit to hopefully get a bit more grunt but the guy said he wouldn't do it without me getting extractors and a higherflowing air filter first. And he said that the pump was fine and that their is no real reson to touch em unless they start leaking. So the fuel shouldn't have been turned up.

Thanks for all the advice

Cheers
Dave

[Yom]

change fuel suppliers too. You never know...

I just wound in the fuel screw on my NA wagon and found some more horsies. quite impressed with how much nicer its driving. Can only see it smoking a night with other cars headlights too. nothing during the day that i can see. But seeing as im happy with its performance im going to start turning it back down a tiny bit every day until i find it just a little down on power and then turn it back and then leave it. No point having excess fuel just flying out the exhaust now is there :)

[Patrolling Paddy]

If you look at the fuel pump leaning over the right side guard it will be toward the left (firewall side) and on the close side of the pump.
There is a couple of screws on the top for the idle adjustment but the fuel adjustment is just under them.
If yours hasn't been touched you won't see the screw and will only see a tube/cap where I described. If someone has played with it you will see the screw.

PP

[BIGDAVET86]

I think i may have found something, the inector pump is leaking from the back or bottom. It doesnt look like much but it is definately leaking. Hopefully i will be buying my first car back off my cousin for a couple hundred bucks this week. so that means i can, take her to see one of the diesel shops here in perth, and get them to take a look at it and give me a report on her general health. She needs a few other bits and pieces done and a body lift so i think im gonna park her up and get it all sorted out, over a few weeks/months.

I went down to Pemberton for the long weekend and put another 1200km on the clock, but on the way down i got overtaken easilly by an unloaded B-Double UPHILL. And that was with only and esky on the back and me and my brother in the cabk, im so over the lack of power.....

Cheers
Dave

[mmciau]

My TD42 powered 95 coil cab has recently (last 15k) begun blowing more black smoke and fuel ecconomy is getting worse (now at 15l/100km, mixed highway and suburban driving, worse with some 4x4 in the mix), and power seems to be down also the oil pressure light is taking longer to turn off in the morning.
It has done 270k and got new injectors a year ago. Last service she got new fuel and air filters.
Im thinking she must be down on compression, so its the rings or valve stem seals, correct?

Question: If it is rings would it be worth tearing it down and doing a major rebuild, ie bearings, pistons, liners, head recon, crank grind etc.
or can you usually get away with just doing the rings.

IF its vavle stem seals will that mean a full recon of the head?

A mate of mine is a diesel fitter and he reckons that it would be piece a piss to rebuild, any thoughts on that, cos i thought that it was pretty hardcore rebuilding a TD42 at home?

Anything else it could be? Let us know what ya think

Cheers
Dave

As all other contibutors have stated about air/fuel issues, there may be a chance that the excessive fuel is being leaked into the sump past the rings, thereby diluting your lubricating oil.

This alone would effect your pressure.

Maybe worth checking to see if your oil is diluting with excessive fuel.

Mike

[BIGDAVET86]

I had a look at the pump and the adjustment screw still has the tamper seal intact.

I dont really use 1 fuel supplier, im a bit of a whore, gull, mobil, shell, BP, i just refuse to use caltex/woolworths.

I went to 3 diesel workshops today and got two very different responces.

2 of the more reputeable places (the bigger ones) said that the pump would need a full overhaul and that by 270k they would expect these things to go wrong. They're quotes came in at $1200 for best case scenario and $1850 worst case.
One of them said they would be able to check the compresion and they have a dyno and give it a full tune. The other bloke only does pumps and injectors and reckons that dyno's are a waste of time cos they only measure fuel/air ratios. And that him setting the pump up on the test bed and then just wacking it back in would give better results than using a dyno to tune it.

The third bloke said that the nissan pump should be good for 750k easy and that its just the seals that need replacing, because the new lower sulpher diesel perishes the seals much faster. He replaces them with low sulpher resistant ones. He wants $950 but will do it for $800 cash. He will fully check the pump for any wear and tear and replace or fix anythings that aint right but said he wouldnt expect to find anything.
He also cant test the compression, but said that unless it has been absoloutly punished it should be good for 400k. He is the same bloke that did the injectors last year -for $400 cash.


What are the expert opinions on this cos they are two very different answers to the same question.

Cheers
Dave

[Patrolling Paddy]

Don't know who the other bloke is or how good he is but I am alway weary of anyone who does the whole 'for cash' sale, cause once it is done you have no reciept and no come backs if it isn't right and you could end up paying twice. On the other hand he may be genuine and not doing a 'big shop' sales pitch.

I am starting to think about options for engine and fuel system work on my rig and up here I don't have a great deal of help from 'specialists' so I need to do alot of research myself too and alot of places won't help with 'trade secrets' which is fair enough to a degree but I can't get stuff done here and I can't easily take my Patrol to them so I need to know what to look for and what to expect before I order any work.

I still think that a dyno will give you a diagnostic checkup if nothing else and then you can make an educated decision on what the next step should be. After all why do the pump if it ain't the problem?

PP

[fullmetaljacket]

After all why do the pump if it ain't the problem?


possablly the best money saving advice on here
x2, you realy need someone to say "its most definatly this xxxx at fault", that way if they repair it and it turns out that it was not the problem you'll be able to get a refund or a percentage back.....

oh and I too would be wary of cashys, he may be legit, but he may have also done a dodgy on your injectors last time, causing this new problem.....not bad mouthing the bloke but you do need to be carefull

[azzad]

My understanding is that noone can tell you that the pump is stuffed or has a problem without removing it from the vehicle and testing it on the bench.

I think using EGT is the way to tune fuel on diesels and this of course would be quickest on a Dyno but equally achievable on the road with a few stops.

I have taken previous 4wd to a shop and used their compression tester with me doing all the work. Id be supprised if you had a compresson problem though.

Dazza

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Hey azzad, there IS a fair bit that you can tell about the 'health' or otherwise of the pump without taking it off the engine, but you can't really say or determine exactly what the EXTENT of the damage is without getting it all apart and at least looking, in many cases even measuring! And that'd be why you get the best/worst case scenario from reputable repairers! They KNOW that there is the chance that what they think is wrong can be just part of the overall damage, so they provide prices on that basis.

The difficulty with 'cash' jobs is really exactly what others have already suggested, you don't have a great deal of come-back if whatever they do doesn't work or even makes the problem worse! With the others, you are paying at least a portion based upon their confidence in the job, and both of these other fellas are pretty confident of their workmanship AND that' they've covered everything they are likely to find in their pricing!

So how much do you trust the 'cash' fella? How confident are you that his workmanship is of the highest quality? It really comes down to that decision on your behalf. Yes, if you trust him, and he's gonna do a good job, and he's good enough at what he does to be justifiably confident that he's gonna be fixing the right thing (have you ASKED him how sure he is that it's gonna fix your problems and make the fuel economy better?) then it might be worthwhile going with him! BUT, anyone who disregards the benefits of a dyno like that, when they excell the way they do as a recognised diagnostic and fine tuning tool for diesel engines, you gotta be a little sus?!

Good Luck!

[BIGDAVET86]

Well i got the deal of a lifetime this week. My good mate, Luke, is in the final months of his apprenticeship as a diesel fitter and his employer (a large earthmoving company) has been sending him off to specailty workshops for two weeks at a time. Last week and next week he is working at fuel injection shop that specialises in heavy diesle's. So when i told him how much it was gonna cost to fix the pump he asked the boss if he could rebuild the pump for me. I have to pay for the parts and the time on the test bed but thats it!!!!! Because the injection shop is not paying him, his employer is, they dont mind him doin it. one of the senior guys is gonna supervise him to because it is even coming with a full warrenty!!!

So today i parked the ute up at my old mans workshop/factory and pulled the radiator, fan, pwr steer pump, battery, and air box. Then Luke came round and we pulled the pump off and he is taking it with him to work on monday. It wasnt as hard as i had imagined and only took 2 hours with a few beers.
One thing that was strange was that the vacuum pump is located under the pump and not on the back of the alternator like every other TD42 ive seen. None of my manuals say anything about the vacuum pump being anywhere but the alternator, so made it a bit interesting and we had to pull tha vacuum pump as well to get the the bottom bolt on the injector pump.

All thats left to do is put it all back togeather, do the tappets and then a compression test to rule out the rings or valve stem seals. But im now pretty confindent that with the pump rebuilt and the tappets fine tuned she should be good to go, coz the pump is lookn pretty sad, it was dripping every 3 or 4 seconds when running this morning, where it was not dripping at all 3 days ago, so it has been getting worse pretty quickly and the performance has been going the same way.

Cheers
Dave

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

About mid-late 1994 the TD42 vacuum pump was transferred from the back of the alternator to an 'oil pump driven' pump located low on the Driver's side front of the engine, under the Injector Pump. Your vehicle, being mid 95, is pobably one of the early vehicles to hit Aust with that configuration. It is actually a much better pump, far less likely to 'wear out' and that's probly a good thing, cos you can see that it will be harder to get off and repair, just from what you've done getting the injector pump off, can't you!

Cheers!

[4x4boi]

My TD42 has 583,000k's on it, cant say i really have a problem with power loss or excessive smoke, actually dad rekons its got more power than his one which had 300,000 on it when he sold it!

The low sulpher diesel eating the seals faster is true, it happened to my dads one and has just started happening to mine and i have a nice little leak from the pump. To replace the seal my dad recalls it having cost around $150 including the seal which isnt too bad.

[BIGDAVET86]

Hi pete, does that mean that parts are harder to find or easier cos i have the nissan manual (both books, about half a phone book each) and no where in there does it state anything about gear driven vac pump. And i had a feeling that finding gaskets and things this week is gonna be interesting, and i'll probly end up just making my own. I tried my local parts shop today and they are normally awesome and can find anything you need for any vehicle but couldnt even find part no.'s for the injector pump gasket and vac. pump gasket.

4x4boi:
I was going to just get the seals replaced but had decided that i would get it rebuilt because now i probly wont have to remove again, for aslong as i've got the vehicle.
With loss of power, seeing as yours already has a few km's on it and your a P plater, so youve had the car for 2 years or less you probly dont know it any other way but when i got mine it had only 190k on it and would overtake trucks and roadtrains much easier than it is doing at the moment, and that was with the canopy on and a bit of gear in the back.
They must have changed the seal with the pump still in cos just the remove and refit charge i was quoted was $450, and if you dont remove all the other bits i reckon it would be a bitch of a job.

I figuered that since i had the radiator out i would change the thermostat and give the whole system a good ceck and replace anything that was crook. and luck i did, as i removed the bolts for the thermostat the third one was so loose i started undoing it by had and then just pulled it out, the thread had been stripped! There was no gasklet and absoloutely bucket loads of sealant holding the show togeather. The last time i remember having the thermostat done was when i was still in Broome - 3 years ago when i had some money in me poket and decided to treat the ute to a full service. So i borrowed a helicoil from my favourite parts shop and fixed it, good thing to cos a replacement thermostat housing (the one that bolts to the top of the water pump and the head) was $425!!!

I will keep ya updated and might even take some photos of the pump going back in, for anyone who's interested.

Cheers
Dave

[TinysMav]

Just to let you know that my TD42 Maverick is booked into Bosch on Tuesday for a new fuel pump. My symptoms were quite basic, whereby the car would start first go cold, meaning that the glowplugs were working fine, but would not start when it was warm, after turning it off for just a few minutes. Give it 2 hours or more to cool down, and it would be fine. Apparently when the fuel warms up ftom sitting in the fuel lines next to the hot motor, it was thinning out just enough that the worn fuel pump couldn't build up enough pressure. It has been blowing black smoke for a while, but I had just accepted it as normal!

My fuel economy has been around 12.5L/100km, and the mechanic reckons that should improve, and give me a little more power too. Not a bad thing...:thumb:

But there is some bad news. The quote was around the $600 mark if it the pump only required a new top hat, but could be as high as $2000 for a whole new pump. :cry:

On a visual inspection on Friday, the mechanic reckoned it looked like the fuel pump had been apart recently (I've only had it for 6 months), meaning the previous owner had probably done a dodgy job just to trade it in. It's also leaking a slight amount of fuel too.

I don't know if any of this will help, but it sounds like you may be on the right track getting your pump done up. I reckon 350k on mine before it started to give up the ghost ain't bad!

[BIGDAVET86]

Yeah there aint nothing cheap about these things ay. Mine starts and runs well, just lost some power and blows more smoke than i would like, and recently is pissing out diesel. Im real lucky that my mate can fix it up for us coz otherwise i would be driving around in a $50 thrash box till i could save the coin to get her fixed. I was told that new seals can be had for around the $500 mark, if i took the pump off myself, or $950 for him to remove and refit.

Well if you can put another 350k on it you'll be doin alright.

Cheers
Dave

[Mav6in]

hey mate if your going to rebuild just remember it costs between 4000 to 8000 depending on what you get done
i just done mine in my mav i had th injectors & pump done i had the block resleaved and bord out a bit i had aftermarket pistons fitted the head was a full reco and mine was woren on the rocker shaft so i had to get another one i also put a turbo on it as well it goes a lot better with it
one other thing is if you do a full rebuild balance it. it does cost a little bit more to balance it but you are better off

[BIGDAVET86]

Well the new pump is in in and i mean NEW!!!!
new housing, shaft, delivery valves, lift pump, the works, the only remaing parts of my pump is the head and the top section. We threw it on last night and timed it. Couldnt believe it we got it right first shot too, 0.75mm and spec says 0.74 +/- 0.02. So what was meant to be a teadious job turned into a few extra beers. Now that the pump is on i can put the rest of it back to geather, bleed it all up and once again be able to overtake.

The advance plunger/spring assembly was apparently in such bad condtion that i would have been driving around normally retarded and it was barley getting past retardation at full throttle.

I took the camera with me last night but i completely forgot about it. I will get some snaps today.

All up it has cost me $700 bucks and 3 cartons of piss. so i reckon ive done alright. The pump itself cost $400, the time on the test bench was $150 the rest has gone into gaskets, fluids and all the other stuff, and the 3 cartons are for my mate. But i think he is gonna want a hand building a retaining wall shorly so it will all come out in the wash hopefully.

Cheers
Dave-

[Patrolling Paddy]

So how does it go now???

[Matto]

So how does it go now???
Seconded!

I'm watching this keenly, since I might have the option soon to pick up an old GQ coil-cab ute that's not in the best condition, and smokes terribly. It's done 300+kms, and will need a bit of work. I'm still trying to decide whether it's the greatest idea ever, or a terrible soul-destroying money pit.

Thanks!
Matto :)

[BIGDAVET86]

Yeah sorry guys i have been flat out at school this week, probly something to do with spending all day saturday putting things back togeather and sunday was mothers day, so that equals no homework getting done at all!!:crazy:

She runs heaps better now and has more power through the whole rev range. It will easilly rev to 3K+ and pulls away when on the highway/freeway. Has madce it a heaps better car to dive and will hopefully make it more eficient, seeing as fule is now $1.76/L!! All in all its made a pretty decent change for the better.

The hardest part about the whole thing was bleeding it up. The idle on the pump was set at around 200rpm for some reason, so it was a real bitch to try and bleed cos it would'nt run on it own. It took me 45 minutes to bleed it and when i finally figured out why it was so much harder than usual, all i did was pull on the handthrottle and away she went. So i went through two batteries, winding it over on the strter motor to bleed the lines.:drink:

Alot of the parts would have gone again but i figured while i had an opportunity to get it done cheap, i may aswell bite the bullet. Apatrently the cost of parts alone would have been $1100 odd, so better to get it all done now.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t254/BIGDAVET86/09052008002edit.jpg
The new pump
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t254/BIGDAVET86/09052008001edit.jpg
about to put it back in on friday night.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t254/BIGDAVET86/10052008012edit.jpg
The pump on and timed waiting for all the other bits to go on around it.

Now i just gotta fix the gremlins inn the steering, brakes and suspension and i will have a nice ute to drive, again. I tell ya you start to let it slip, get lazy and dont fix things, just get used to them and before ya know it theres thousands of $$ that need to be spent. just to get it back to the condition i bought it in 4 years ago.:cry:

Cheers
Dave