Is Biodiesel safe to use?

[Patrolos]

Is biodiesel safe in a 95 non-turbo GQ?
Diesel's gone up to $1.62 today. I saw Biodiesel for $1.43.
Should I pay 162 or 143? :confused:
I think I read somewhere that Bio affects rubber hoses and seals.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

There's lots of people out there using it, and seemingly quite effectively; but there is also a lot of advice from Nissan and the Injector pump manufacturers that suggests you should leave it alone! I don't think you'll get an easy answer to your question, there is just so much info out there. So your best bet at this stage is to use the Search facility (just below and to the left of your username, top left of the screen) and type in "bio diesel". That'll get you pretty well most of the discussion on this forum about it, and a lot of links to other forums and websites with all the pros and cons. Over to you!

Enjoy the search!

[RODEONICK]

hey i run my 2001 holden rodeo on homemade bio diesel and it absolutly loves it. if the servo your talking about is a VP branded outlet dont use it as they have had heaps of dodgy fuel that gives biodiesel a bad name. Ant way chech out Bio Fuels Forums - Powered by vBulletin (http://www.biofuelsforum.com) read a bit there then you should ask the servo the tough questions eg where is it from ? what %, etc. I love the stuff and will NEVER go back to stinky Dino. JUst be wary of some servos.
cheers Nick.:truck:

[91GQ]

yeh I use Freedom Fuels Biodiesel and have had nothing but good from it, it runs my car cleaner and I feel a bit smoother as well, but that could just be a mind thing, there is no loss in power on hills that I have found and the same on the beach, have been running it for about a year and the only time that I don't use it is when I don't have a freedom fuels site nearby...

[HDJ105]

The big problem with bio diesel is that there are no hard and fast rules or more correctly standards on the manufacture of BD.

That's why all the major fuel injection equipment manufacturers won't and can't recommend any more than B5 (i.e. 5% bio).

[RODEONICK]

The big problem with bio diesel is that there are no hard and fast rules or more correctly standards on the manufacture of BD.

That's why all the major fuel injection equipment manufacturers won't and can't recommend any more than B5 (i.e. 5% bio).

CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!

The standard for BioDiesel in Australia is
(the Fuel Standard (Biodiesel) Determination 2003).
Federal Act.

My homemade fuel however isn't as far as i know. (testing costs big $$) THats why you gotta ask who supply them eg SAFF, ABG etc.

Caterpillar now allows up to 30% blends in there marine engines.
Yes some operator sell dodgy fuel whether it be dino or bio or blends. be carefull and ask the important questions.

I would personally steer clear of any VP servos for biodiesel as i have heard about and seen some pretty shitty fuel.

[Goldielux]

CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!


I take it you don't agree:confused:

Contact the manufacturer and ask some questions and maybe get some info posted out.

[John Hayes]

I tried Bio from my local VP dealer, who said there was only 10% bio. in their fuel, this was a new servo with new tanks etc. I had varying problems including blocked fuel filters, totally blocked with a gluggy wax stopping the engine from going over idle, I even fitted a pre-filter with a water trap to try and fix the on-going blockages, in the end I had the fuel tested just for my own interest after finding a brown sludge in the water trap in varying amounts, this turned out to be Glycerol, had to fit a drain to my main tank to flush all this Glycol out and start from scratch again, the test proved that the VP dealer was using more than 30% bio, so beware of the source and quality of your Diesel fuel, I now stick to major outlets have not had a blockage since.

[HDJ105]

CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!

The standard for BioDiesel in Australia is
(the Fuel Standard (Biodiesel) Determination 2003).
Federal Act.


Well that's your opinion. Unfortunately there are no fuel injection equipment manufacturers in Australia to accept the local standard as far as I'm aware!

And the 5 major manufacturer's (Delphi, Siemens-VDO, Stanadyne, Denso and Bosch) released a group statement in January last year, their agreed position was stated (remember, they have to warrant their systems) as:

"The currently agreed positon of all FIE manufacturers undersigned is to limit release of injection equipment for admixtures up to a maximum of 5% FAME (meeting the EN14214 standard) with unadulterated diesel fuel (meeting the EN590 standard). The final product B5 must also comply with EN590."

[FIE = Fuel Injection Equipment; FAME = Fatty Acid Methyl Ester]

It's all in a 3MB pdf file I have.

There's also some more US info HERE (http://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/infocenter/biodiesel/index.html?promo=ag_home&bug=biodiesel_agbanner&tm=jdps)

[Patrolos]

Forgive me because I am a simple man.
What does that mean?
Are Biodiesels safe to use or not?

[HDJ105]

Forgive me because I am a simple man.
What does that mean?
Are Biodiesels safe to use or not?

Simple answer: Some are, some are not. :(

As per John Hayes post above, his experience was not good, others have no issues. It depends on the quality of the fuel, which seems to vary considerably.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

What it really means, Patrolos, is that the FIE manufacturers simply won't warrant anything that has knowingly used Bio-diesel at a concentration greater than 5% (B5) and that the product you buy at retail sites in Aust can be of questionable quality (no matter how good your home made stuff may be!)

So it comes down to YOUR DECISION! In terms of advice on making that decision, you really should be asking yourself a series of questions: ie. How new is your car, & is it still under warranty? You want to keep that warranty? Does your car run a rotary style pump? Does your diesel car use Common Rail Diesel technology? Is your car sooo necessary to your daily activities that you simply cannot afford to be without it for any period? Is the cost of re-building the Injector pump on your car going to be a significant or crippling financial imposition? Do you drive/live in a remote area? Would a failure in your car's injection system create a potentially life threatening situation?

Answer any of those questions with a 'YES' and you really should consider very, VERY carefully before using Bio-diesel from a source that you don't know and trust implicitly has the well-being and longevity of your car as a priority in their opeations.

In other words, 'Is Bio-Diesel Safe to use?' No-one is going to warrant that it is safe or back/support their feeling that it is by putting their own Dollars at risk! Take that however you like it and make your decision on that basis.

Cheers!

[Patrolos]

:eek: Fak! It's that good?
Dino Diesel is $164.9 today. Looks like I'm paying $1.69. I luv my GQ too much to risk it.
Thanx for explaining it so well.

BTW. Do you think these high prices could be the reason why there is no standard for biodiesel? ;) Or am I just a cynic?

[Wortho]

had varying problems including blocked fuel filters, totally blocked with a gluggy wax stopping the engine from going over idle

That would actually be the Bio cleaning the crap out of your fuel system, when you switch to Bio you should expect to have to change your filters after the first tank as it is a very effective as a cleaning agent, the reason you need to use viton seals and hose's is that it will dissolve rubber.
That problem you had may have been from dodgy fuel from that particular servo however most people who try bio and clog there filters say "i'm not using that crap again" when the problem actually came from a build up of gunk in there fuel system from using Dino.

[John Hayes]

Quote
That would actually be the Bio cleaning the crap out of your fuel system, when you switch to Bio you should expect to have to change your filters after the first tank as it is a very effective as a cleaning agent.

Good theory if you started on the well known Major outlets BP's, Shell etc. but I went out of my way from "New" to use Bio because of the "Good" press, so I did not have contaminated tanks, I do aprox.1500km. per week and while using just Bio I had to change the genuine fuel filter every time I did engine oil filters because of the contaminated/clogged and restricted fuel filter, as mentioned in a previous post I fitted a CAV 296 combo unit to try and help my genuine F/Filter last longer, it didn't and I contaminated my main fuel tank with the Glycerol Brown residue that apparently is used in the processing of the Bio-Diesel, this I removed by fitting a drain to the main tank, allowing me to flush out the sticky residue.

I have reverted to the Major outlets since I had the VP bio fuel tested and touch wood have been getting normal cycles from my fuel filters with no more blockages,restriction or brown residue in both my pre-filter and genuine filter set up, must be better for whole inj.system.

Because of the hard towing km. I do from Tassie to Cairns I do not need to have a problem with my fuel supply!.

Whilst I would like to use Bio for many reasons, I simply cannot rely on a constant quality from the likes of VP etc.

[marki]

Simple answer: Some are, some are not. :(

As per John Hayes post above, his experience was not good, others have no issues. It depends on the quality of the fuel, which seems to vary considerably.

Bingo bango! I've seen enough stories about dodgy BD from commercial outlets to be very wary of ever using that source. My guess is that it's a small enough industry that they figure that whatever standards there are will not be enforced.

As far as homemade bio goes there is also considerable variation in quality - mainly because most people that make it (like people on the biofuels forum Bio Fuels Forums - Powered by vBulletin (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/)) don't really know what they're doing.

Good bio is better for your engine than dino, as it has better lubricity and is lower in sulphur (and creates less soot).

And I think that manufacturers are wary of giving warranties for the reasons above - they are not confident that there is a stringent enough quality standard.

And yes - 100% bio will chew out the rubber seals in your injector pump - a rebuild with Viton seals will fix the problem.

[RODEONICK]

I tried Bio from my local VP dealer, who said there was only 10% bio. in their fuel, this was a new servo with new tanks etc. I had varying problems including blocked fuel filters, totally blocked with a gluggy wax stopping the engine from going over idle, I even fitted a pre-filter with a water trap to try and fix the on-going blockages, in the end I had the fuel tested just for my own interest after finding a brown sludge in the water trap in varying amounts, this turned out to be Glycerol, had to fit a drain to my main tank to flush all this Glycol out and start from scratch again, the test proved that the VP dealer was using more than 30% bio, so beware of the source and quality of your Diesel fuel, I now stick to major outlets have not had a blockage since.

hence the reason why i said in a previous post to avoid VP.They really seem to give biodiesel a bad name.

Simple answer: Some are, some are not. :(

As per John Hayes post above, his experience was not good, others have no issues. It depends on the quality of the fuel, which seems to vary considerably.
agreed 100% but standards are there (thats what the crap was for) sory if i wasn't clearer.

:eek: Fak! It's that good?
Dino Diesel is $164.9 today. Looks like I'm paying $1.69. I luv my GQ too much to risk it.
Thanx for explaining it so well.

BTW. Do you think these high prices could be the reason why there is no standard for biodiesel? ;) Or am I just a cynic?
There is a standard and the high prices are to do with crude oil prices blah blah. what servo are you talking about?? if its VP forget it but if its another do some homework.

That would actually be the Bio cleaning the crap out of your fuel system, when you switch to Bio you should expect to have to change your filters after the first tank as it is a very effective as a cleaning agent, the reason you need to use viton seals and hose's is that it will dissolve rubber.
That problem you had may have been from dodgy fuel from that particular servo however most people who try bio and clog there filters say "i'm not using that crap again" when the problem actually came from a build up of gunk in there fuel system from using Dino.

Wortho good to see you know ya shit. this is soooo often this case it ridiculous.


Glycerol Brown residue that apparently is used in the processing of the Bio-Diesel,
Whilst I would like to use Bio for many reasons, I simply cannot rely on a constant quality from the likes of VP etc. The glycerol is the by product of making biodiesel its NOT used in the processing.
i would agree VP suck and do more harm than good. However i think that it is unfair to label biodiesel as CRAP etc when bad dino is just as common.

Good bio is better for your engine than dino, as it has better lubricity and is lower in sulphur (and creates less soot).

And I think that manufacturers are wary of giving warranties for the reasons above - they are not confident that there is a stringent enough quality standard.

And yes - 100% bio will chew out the rubber seals in your injector pump - a rebuild with Viton seals will fix the problem. agreed

at the end of the day look for quality in what ever fuel, oil or what ever you choose. I use Biodiesel that i'm satified with the quality of. I have had bad experiences with caltex diesel but that was prob just cos of the servo's tanks or bad batch from refinery. warrenties wont cover bad fuel whether it be bio or dino. Don't think that because some people have had bad expiences that you will too. I will re'interate that VP FUELS SUCK.
With a sound understanding and a quality biodiesel their is no reason that a GQ patrol will not run beatifully and cleaner on Biodiesel.

Cheers Nick

[sudso]

What about used cooking oil?
This has been used successfully.

[physh]

Autospeed (http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110326/article.html) article...

[Anjitago]

In trying Bio Diesel some many people have no problem as all converting over to it. yet there are also many people that have also had problems with using bio diesel particularly b100. I have used b100 on 3 vehicles and have only had problems on one of the vehicles after the initial filter change. I put up with the coffing and spluttering for a couple of months and it came good and ran sweet again.

What the issue is that the bio diesel as mentioned before will clean out your fuel tank and fuel lines, the junk will then float around in your fuel tank and block you filters, a good cheap fix here is to include an inexpensive plastic inline filter just before your main filter in a place with easy access, and keep a spare in the glove box so you can replace it on the go.

What causes the big problems is when the bio diesel cleans the fuel lines after the filters, most of the time it will painlessly pass thru the fuel pump and injectors, but sometimes it will get stuck with the filter in the injector pump needing cleaning, the absolute worst case in needing to get you injectors and injector pump overhauled, this can be expensive.

REMEMBER, Bio Diesel will only clean out the rubish that is already in your fuel system.

also earlier mentioned was a dark brown substance (Glycerol) this is a by product in the manufacture of bio diesel and is removed thru the settling process, occasionally some will make it thru into you vehicle but is easily removed by your filters, this is why i suggest running a cheap inline filter (this will also prolong the life of your main filter too)

a tip for people who have problems with glycerol in their tanks, Glycerol is water soluble (hot water works best) so you can easily flush the glycerol out with hot water, just ensure you dry the tank before re filling it.

also you should know Glycerol and b100 is bio degradable but mineral diesel is not.

bio diesel also can strip paint so any splashes on your paint work should be washed off immediately

sorry it is a bit long but i hope some people will find some help out of my experiences

[RODEONICK]

What about used cooking oil?
This has been used successfully.
Yes they have but require vehicle mods to heat the oil prior to the filters and IP. start up and shut downs must be on bio or diesel also.

Biodiesel is made from the used cooking oils also.:waycool:

Cheers Nick.

[RODEONICK]

Autospeed (http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110326/article.html) article...

That has to be the best biofuels beat up i've read in at least the last hour ha ha ha.:crazy:

[sudso]

bio diesel also can strip paint so any splashes on your paint work should be washed off immediately

??? Is this stuff bloody fuel or a solvent? If it eats paint whats it doing to your injector pump and rubber sections of fuel line? I've heard bio doesn't have very good lubricating properties for your pump also.

[RODEONICK]

??? Is this stuff bloody fuel or a solvent? If it eats paint whats it doing to your injector pump and rubber sections of fuel line? I've heard bio doesn't have very good lubricating properties for your pump also.
Its Both so it cleans your tank, lines and injection system while you drive cool hey. You might have heard how the ultra low sulpher diesel was stuffing up older vehicles seals? Biodiesl has the same affect to SOME older fuel lines and IP seals. Once rebuilt for the ULS Diesel Biodiesel can also be used. Most modern vehicles have biodiesl tolerant fuel lines and pump seals anyway. Your IP is actually much much better off running biodiesel for its exceptional lubrication properties. Studies have shown that just a 5% blend of biodiesel increases the lubricity by more than 50%. Cool hey? But yes it does eat paint slowly but shorely.:cry:

[Patrolos]

I met a bloke who uses a 50/50 mix of cooking oil and diesel.
He insisted that there has never been an issue with it.
It's a great lubricant and it won't eat the rubber seals.
Is he right or talking out of his a$$?

[RODEONICK]

I met a bloke who uses a 50/50 mix of cooking oil and diesel.
He insisted that there has never been an issue with it.
It's a great lubricant and it won't eat the rubber seals.
Is he right or talking out of his a$$?

he is absolutly right, we in the biofuels world call that the high tech method of BLENDING:thumb: .
But i must stress that blending ratios are very different from one vehicle or climate to another. Eg a 60 series in an aussie summer should be fine on a high blend because of its separate lift pump and inline IP whereas a rotary pump or modern CRD engine in winter would have to use a much much lower blend. Most people start with a say 10% or less blend then monitor this for a while then trial other % blends. The main concern is cold starting when the engine,IP and Injectors are coldest and the vege oil is thicker.
Hope this helps someone.
Cheers Nick.:truck:

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

If you could be confident that you were going to get a quality, well made product, then Bio-diesel should be safe for just about any diesel engine. BUT, I've had too many customers who have ended up with all sorts of issues that basically come back to poor quality control on the bio-diesel production!

So either wait until the quality control is a helluva lot better than it is now, and the standards of production & blending are closely monitored; OR make your own to your own standard, and accept the consequences. Until then, if you have a rotary pump, you'd be well advised to steer clear, or change the rotary pump for an in-line pump!

Enjoy!

[Patrolos]

Thanx Nick
I have a friend :rolleyes: who has a 95 4.2lt GQ non turbo.
What mix would he use? I think he lives in the Shire, so it doesn't get too cold.
Would I, oops he be better off running it through a heater so he can run a higher mix?

[RODEONICK]

If you could be confident that you were going to get a quality, well made product, then Bio-diesel should be safe for just about any diesel engine. BUT, I've had too many customers who have ended up with all sorts of issues that basically come back to poor quality control on the bio-diesel production!

So either wait until the quality control is a helluva lot better than it is now, and the standards of production & blending are closely monitored; OR make your own to your own standard, and accept the consequences. Until then, if you have a rotary pump, you'd be well advised to steer clear, or change the rotary pump for an in-line pump!

Enjoy! So what are you saying peter? are you saying that a rotary pump is no good for biodiesl?
We were refuring to BLENDING WVO with Diesel. nothing about biodiesel maybe you missunderstood the post.
for that i'm sorry.

[RODEONICK]

Thanx Nick
I have a friend :rolleyes: who has a 95 4.2lt GQ non turbo.
What mix would he use? I think he lives in the Shire, so it doesn't get too cold.
Would I, oops he be better off running it through a heater so he can run a higher mix?

I really dont know nissans at all is that a rotary or inline pump? Its non turbo so i believe that it would be indirect injection correct?

Like is said in a previous post start low blends then go higher as you gain confidence. going into winter your blends will be less than a summer one would be. try 5% even to start and you'll hear how much quiter your engine will run its quite amazing. Yes heating is great but then your getting into a conversion territory or what we call two tank system (once again a highly technical term) a local bloke in sydney does these if your keen. then you run on 100% WVO once warm so free driving.
I would suggest that you try a 5% blend then see what path you wish to go down. Just don't for christs sake use any VP fuels. try some research elsewhere to get a better understanding of all this mumbo jumbo.

[marki]

Thanx Nick
I have a friend :rolleyes: who has a 95 4.2lt GQ non turbo.
What mix would he use? I think he lives in the Shire, so it doesn't get too cold.
Would I, oops he be better off running it through a heater so he can run a higher mix?

Agree with everything Nick said, with the following additional comments. Is the cooking oil new or used? If it's used, you'd better be careful - aside from the problem of solids in it, it can be quite acidic. I've often thought that if you bought cooking oil in bulk, it could be relatively cheap (compared to diesel).

Also, I'm no expert on GQ Nissans, but would they have two tanks anyway?

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Just about all the TD42's that we saw here in Aus came with a rotary style injector pump (ie the pumps that almost every reputable pump manufacturer and/or repairer recommends very strongly that you don't run dio-diesel of questionable quality in!) While there WAS an option that allowed fitment of an in-line pump, I haven't seen one on more than a couple of early Utes, where the 'farm' vehicle was spec'd that way by the first owner who knew and was comfortable with in-line pumps and this new fangled rotary stuff was never gonna catch on anyhoo! And the GQ's came out with only one fuel tank, at least until very late in the life of the GQ anyway. The sub tank didn't become a 'standard' across the board fitting until the GU's were up and running!

Regardless of using blended waste oil, or bio-diesel bought from a pump, unless YOU can be sure of the quality of the production or standard of the filtering process, you really are running a fairly significant risk by using it in vehicle equipped with a rotary pump. Just call any of the pump repairers you can find, ask them what they think about bio-diesel. Almost every one of them will absolutely LOVE the stuff, 'cos it's given them SO MUCH WORK! And by far the majority of that work will have been on rotary pumps!! Basically, unless YOU make it or filter it yourself and are happy with the quality of your final product, there's a pretty high risk that you'll get crap into the pump at some stage, and a rotary pump won't take much to kill. Is that a risk that you are prepared to take? Not something that I would recommend to anyone, but in the end, it's up to each of the individual owners, isn't it?!

[RODEONICK]

1you really are running a fairly significant risk by using it in vehicle equipped with a rotary pump.

2Just call any of the pump repairers you can find, ask them what they think about bio-diesel. Almost every one of them will absolutely LOVE the stuff, 'cos it's given them SO MUCH WORK!

3And by far the majority of that work will have been on rotary pumps!!

4there's a pretty high risk that you'll get crap into the pump at some stage,

5 Is that a risk that you are prepared to take? Not something that I would recommend to anyone, but in the end, it's up to each of the individual owners, isn't it?!

1. Hogwash, Can you define this significant risk?? So how would you define a servo with low fuel turnover in a rural area??

2. Yeah and if a product such as biodiesel is proven to have a higher lubricity than Diesel wouldn't you bash the product to protect your business?? who pays for their training/ brainwashing???

3. probably true but do you think that might be becaquse the majority of IP's out their are rotary???

4. Crap, dont you run filters and a water seppartor?? the risk of bad diesel is just the same.

5. Well iv'e had one pump rebuild and it was from bad diesel from a dodgy operator. so for me the risk of filling up is minimised as i know every step in my production. I would recommend home production to anyone with half a brain and good DIY skills. Buy making your own you become more self sufficent, less reliant on foreign oil, and do your bit for the environment. I agree that it isn't for everyone but people that bag it without knowing the full storiy give me the sheitz.

[Patrolos]

I've installed a Frantz filter on my fuel line, so I don't think any crap will ever get to my pump.

[marki]

2. Yeah and if a product such as biodiesel is proven to have a higher lubricity than Diesel wouldn't you bash the product to protect your business?? who pays for their training/ brainwashing???

This is what I've found too. When I was looking for someone that could rebuild the IP in my 80 with Viton seals, I became accustomed to speaking to IP guys that didn't know beans about bio - they'd been told that it was "bad stuff" by someone in their industry, and had no inkling that it was intrinsically a superior fuel.

Just call any of the pump repairers you can find, ask them what they think about bio-diesel. Almost every one of them will absolutely LOVE the stuff, 'cos it's given them SO MUCH WORK!

This is true (except I mostly got abused when I mentioned biodiesel - they didn't seem very happy at all) - but IMO it's mostly the result of bad fuel from commercial suppliers. Backyarders have the advantage that they can see what they are putting in their tanks because they have made the stuff - and only a complete moron would put something in his car that wasn't pristine.

But if you just stick a bowser in your car you have no idea what's going in there, and anecdotally I'm of the view that there's lots of bad bio out there in petrol stations - that's certainly the word in the bio community (and I think that this is essentially the point that Peter was making). On top of that, of course, commercial bio is pretty much the same price as dino anyway - dunno why you'd bother with it....

So - it creates the bizarre situation that the commercial suppliers give the backyarders a bad name........:thumb: Like Nick said, do the hard yards, do it yourself, and you'll never look back. It's been so long since I've filled up in a servo that when I had to do it recently (due to a short-term supply problem), I didn't know which side of the bowser to pull up on....

Which raises another point - what happened to the days when bowsers had a little sight window on them - and you could see the fuel that was going in.:confused:

I've installed a Frantz filter on my fuel line, so I don't think any crap will ever get to my pump.

Be a bit careful with Frantz filters - they are very fine filters (which is a good thing) but if you are using a higher viscosity fuel like bio (or especially SVO) there is the potential for fuel starvation problems....but it depends on the type of IP you have and where you mount it as well

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

So Rodeonick, I take it that you didn't see the article on the News tonight that raised all these issues and some more, raising the spectre that bio-diesel isn't really the 'green' solution that many think?

And Patrolos, sorry, but the Frantz filter will only get the debris and foreign bits out of the fuel, so it might work well for blended used oils, but the major problem is the bio-diesels that use more hydrogenated fats in their feedstock! (ie ALL of them, some to greater and some to lesser extents!) Those bio-diesels will have components in the fuel that will 'crystalise' (for want of a better word) as the temperature drops, and that will form a mucus like substance that gets trapped in your fuel lines, filters, your injectors, and your injector pumps, especially rotary pumps. You can't filter it out without excluding the bio-diesel completely, because it is directly related to the bio-diesel itself turning into a solid as the temperature drops!

And where the quality control comes in is in policing the feed stocks and fats that are used to create the bio-diesel in the first place! Bio-diesel is made of the ester components in natural oils and fats. The more hydrogenated the feedstock, the higher the temperature that crystalisation (ie turning from a liquid to a solid) occurs. And All Oils simply ain't just oils. If you use feedstocks with a low level of saturated fats you will find it isn't a major problem, but the quality of feedstocks simply isn't controlled, and maufacturers can use anything in their feedstocks, including animal fats (and they DO!)

Maybe the back yarder who is concientious about what he does is producing a better bio-diesel product than the poorly controlled bulk producers, I don't KNOW that they do, but I do know that my customers who experience this 'mucus' problem in their fuel lines and injector pumps really aren't impresssed when they find that their pump isn't going to be covered by warranty because they used bio-diesel and it is obvious that they have; and the guy who fixes the pump at great expense to the punter informs them that this sort of damage is NOT covered by warranty; and that no matter how much they argue against that, no matter who they take to whatever court, the end result is that they wear the cost of the repair if they decide to use bio-diesel - unless they can PROVE that the bio-diesel that came out of THAT PUMP at THAT supplier is the fuel that did the damage! And that is basically impossible. Besides, if they used dino-diesel, the chances of this occurring would have been massively less!

And it is largely for this reason that running bio-diesels in rotary style pump injected engines is such a real risk! So I stand by my previous post!

"Basically, unless YOU make it or filter it yourself and are happy with the quality of your final product, there's a pretty high risk that you'll get crap into the pump at some stage, and a rotary pump won't take much to kill. Is that a risk that you are prepared to take? Not something that I would recommend to anyone, but in the end, it's up to each of the individual owners, isn't it?!"

Cheers!


PS There are some solutions to this problem. You can keep your car in a heated shed. You can use the two tank system that's been mentioned previously, but remember that you MUST flush your fuel system prior to storage or stopping long enough to cool down, especially if overnight temps will be low. OR, and this is probably the best solution short of steering clear of bio-diesel until the standards are suitable and suitably policed, is to use the two tank system and pre-heat your fuel using a heat exchanger so that the temp is always above that crystalisation level.

[RODEONICK]

So Rodeonick, I take it that you didn't see the article on the News tonight that raised all these issues and some more, raising the spectre that bio-diesel isn't really the 'green' solution that many think?

i missed the daily biodiesel beat-up sorry.
So are you telling me that the waste oil (already served its purpose in the food chain) that i save from landfill and make into biodiesel isn't really a GREEN solution. What are you doing better peter please inform us all so we can all learn and do our bit????

[RODEONICK]

the major problem is the bio-diesels that use more hydrogenated fats in their feedstock! (ie ALL of them, some to greater and some to lesser extents!) Those bio-diesels will have components in the fuel that will 'crystalise' (for want of a better word) as the temperature drops, and that will form a mucus like substance that gets trapped in your fuel lines, filters, your injectors, and your injector pumps, especially rotary pumps. You can't filter it out without excluding the bio-diesel completely, because it is directly related to the bio-diesel itself turning into a solid as the temperature drops!



NOT all biodiesel use's hydrogenated fats in its production.
we in the loop call your Crystaline "snowflaking"so are you saying that someone in sydney would have to be worried about their fuel getting clogged in their lines, filters, injectors and pump in the colder months????

Why do you say that rotary pumps are more susucptable to clogging???

and as for "can't filter it out without excluding it completely" that is absolute trollup.You can filter it out and then use in in the warmer months.
I have 3 stores of Waste oil one perfect clear stuff the next liquid but cloudy like apperance then next solid chicken fats. i vary my
production on a seasonal basis to match. Ie november-Feb chicken fat bio It starts snowflaking at 6deg C in my tests feb-may and september-november cloudy oil bio 2deg C snowflaking in my tests. I save the best for winter may-sept with snowflaking not occuring until -4deg C.

[RODEONICK]

the guy who fixes the pump at great expense to the punter informs them that this sort of damage is NOT covered by warranty; and that no matter how much they argue against that, no matter who they take to whatever court, the end result is that they wear the cost of the repair if they decide to use bio-diesel - unless they can PROVE that the bio-diesel that came out of THAT PUMP at THAT supplier is the fuel that did the damage! And that is basically impossible. Besides, if they used dino-diesel, the chances of this occurring would have been massively less!


if it were bad diesel the result would be the same (as bio) as warrenties do not cover dodgy fuel. and as for chances you obviously are talking poo what are your % figures?? you don't know the chances so don't pretend you do.

[Marc 1]

In the same way that dino diesel requires additives in snow country, its possible to add various things to Bio diesel to prevent problems in cold weather. There are numerous people using Biodiesel in Canada and Vermont (Places where there is snow on the ground for a couple of months of the year), and they use biodiesel year round. So cold weather isn't necessarily a problem, it just means that biodiesel waxes up earlier than dino diesel, use additives and the problem goes away.

[Big Boots]

Ratio of bio to normal diesel injector pump deaths through the workshop here is telling me bio needs more regulations before it is unleashed on the general population. Same with lpg. Unless the vehicle is actually designed for it ah la falcon, you won't catch me reccomending it to be done. Same with Jeta1 in a diesel. Yeah it works, but I won't be reccomending it any time soon. Hence if anyone asks my opinion, that is what they will get. Before you ask rodeonick, I'm not going through 1000's of R/O's to get the actual figure.

[Marc 1]

Also Big Boots you'd have to wonder where the Bio came from. If it came from some grubby mongrel, tossing some crap together with a bit of used sump oil and whatever else he can scrounge, then labelling it Biodiesel, then you can see why there are tears. The only thing that saves the operator is that people blame the fact that it is 'Biodiesel' not the fact that it was some crap cobbled together. If on the other hand the dodgy servo owner were to do the dodgy on dino diesel, owners would be less likely to write off the loss as a trial of an 'experimental' fuel and would be seeking blood. This is the problem the industry faces.

I have seen proper Biodiesel being made on a few farms (made a small batch myself) and would have little hesitation using it in a diesel vehicle. BUT after hearing some of the stories about some of the outlets, unless I were very certain about who was making what where I'd be looking at dino. We need a better form of regulation.

So, Biodiesel isn't the problem, the crap that is often passed off as biodiesel is the issue.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

It's not always the 'Dodgy' Servo owner, there are certainly many out there who are trying their hardest to do the right thing, but we currently have no real controls on what gets used as feedstock for bio-diesel, and animal fats are not as good as vegetable oils in terms of the hydrogenated (saturated) fats in them. It's often the case that when the producer knows they are going to get tested, they make sure everything is up to speed with the best feedstock thru to the most stringent of scrubbing and filtering at the end, whereas any other day they might be just using the left over fats sent round from the local slaughter house cos they get them for nix and it makes up the volume pretty quick! The result is still reasonable Bio-fuel if it's kept at the right temperature, but the more saturated fats in it the higher the temp it starts to thicken and crystalise at until it's pretty much at air temperature, ie as soon as it comes out of the underground tanks! That stuff ends up going to the unsuspecting Servo fuel re-seller & then straight into your tank, and he's the guy who wears your wrath when it kills your injector pump!

Mind you, there are also a few unscrupulous re-sellers out there who pass on anything and use just about anything to increase their profit margins! You just don't know unless you test it all IMMEDIATELY BEFORE it goes into your tank! The Dino diesel is not so susceptible to these sorts of problems, firstly because there are more people using it and therefore more to complain about it, bringing notice to any poor quality product quite quickly, and secondly because there are mandated checks and samples taken all thru the process, some of them random and ad hoc, so the quality has to be pretty well up to standard all the time. Sadly, not such checcks yet enforced for Bio-diesel!

So like Marc 1 says, it's the crap that often gets passed off as bio-diesel that the problem!

[RODEONICK]

So like Marc 1 says, it's the crap that often gets passed off as bio-diesel that the problem!

agreed 100%:thumb:

[marki]

and animal fats are not as good as vegetable oils in terms of the hydrogenated (saturated) fats in them.

Actually, bio made from saturated fats is better than bio made from vege oils in every respect except one - gel point. The fact that the molecules contain no double bonds make them highly stable to oxidation - thus more stable to longterm storage. On the downside, however, you have to heat it to melt it before you can make the bio.

In terms of the damage that is caused to pumps, I'm curious to know how it happens, and what the nature of the damage is. If you had one of the (longer chain) components of your mix solidifying in your fuel (and therefore your pump), what does it actually do? I'd always thought that if it was too viscous, the pump would just stop.

There is, of course, a simple QC test that anyone who has any doubts about their fuel can use. Just keep a bit in a jar somewhere (in your car). If it gels, you know the stuff in your tank has gelled.

[dakar61]

As a DFI repairer I have seen my share of bio-diesel-damaged injection pumps, all rotary type pumps. I`m talking about bio-diesel here not straight veg or animal fat oils.

The damage ranges from a waxy residue clogging the filters and the entire pump, causing sticking feed pump vanes, sticking spill-ring and sticking governor components and a watery type emulsion that causes component corrosion and the same stuck components.

Another type of damage that I have seen, that nobody here has mentioned yet, is an acidic type of erosion that occurs to the non-ferrous metals in the pumps. The aluminium housings and bronze drive shaft bushes are just eaten away by some reaction with the BD. The normally blued surfaces of other steel components in the pumps are also left bright, with all the bluing "eaten" off.

I have always assumed that the above causes of the damage have been due to "bad batches" with lack of attention to the drying and settling processes, but the non-ferrous metal attack is a mystery, to me at least.

Methanol is used in the process, isnt it? Doesnt methanol attack non-ferrous metals?

Any clues?

PS, we only see the bio-diesel-caused failures for us to repair. I`m sure there are people out there making good batches and sucessfully running their vehicles on it. Good luck to them. I wish I had the time to give it a go myself.

Its a bit like home brew really, some people can make nectar and others make stuff that you wouldnt scrub the driveway with...

[marki]

Another type of damage that I have seen, that nobody here has mentioned yet, is an acidic type of erosion that occurs to the non-ferrous metals in the pumps. The aluminium housings and bronze drive shaft bushes are just eaten away by some reaction with the BD. The normally blued surfaces of other steel components in the pumps are also left bright, with all the bluing "eaten" off.

I have always assumed that the above causes of the damage have been due to "bad batches" with lack of attention to the drying and settling processes, but the non-ferrous metal attack is a mystery, to me at least.

Methanol is used in the process, isnt it? Doesnt methanol attack non-ferrous metals?

Any clues?


I think I know what this would be. A little known fact is that aluminium is attacked just as strongly by solutions of high pH (alkaline) as low pH (acid).

BD manufacture uses a strong alkali as the catalyst. If your cleanup afterwards wasn't up to scratch, it would only need a bit of it in the fuel to cause exactly this kind of damage.

BTW, what's a rotary pump? How does it differ from a ...er..... is the pump in my 1HZ a rotary?

[RODEONICK]

1.I have always assumed that the above causes of the damage have been due to "bad batches" with lack of attention to the drying and settling processes, but the non-ferrous metal attack is a mystery, to me at least.

2.Methanol is used in the process, isnt it? Doesnt methanol attack non-ferrous metals?

3.PS, we only see the bio-diesel-caused failures for us to repair. I`m sure there are people out there making good batches and sucessfully running their vehicles on it. Good luck to them. I wish I had the time to give it a go myself.

4.Its a bit like home brew really, some people can make nectar and others make stuff that you wouldnt scrub the driveway with...


5.BTW, what's a rotary pump? How does it differ from a ...er..... is the pump in my 1HZ a rotary?


1. I have to agree with you, failure to properly manufacture, wash and store Bio as with dino can have devastating results for IP's regardless of type of pump.
2. Methanol is used in the process but thats the key word USED. It is consumed in the reaction, removed with the glycerol by-product then any small reminants washed, boiled or evaporated off quite easily. I doubt that it is cause for the corrostion you are finding in the pumps you have overhauled. Unless of course it was VP Fuel. They will sell their own mothers for a dollar. mongrels.
3. Its nice to see someone that holds judgement for a change. Well done and could you post up some pics and a bit of a blog on your next bio diesel or normal diesel failed pump as im sure it would be interesting for us all to see inside them and what they are like. :)
4.I couldn't agree more. But between us i would rather drink my bio than my homebrew:D . I can never get the gassing quite right unfortunantly.

5. Your 1HZ does have a rotary pump. As a general rule rotary pumps look like an A/C compressor and have the injector pipes exiting the back of the pump. whereas an inline is more rectangular shape with injector pipes exiting pump 'Inline' and usually on the top of the pump.

18728
This is the Inline IP after removal from my recent purchase( brought with broken cam chain so full engine rebuild). either way i'm sure you will see the diffs between this and your rotary pump.
Cheers Nick.

[bushbloke]

As per 91GQ above, i started using Freedom B20 about 2000 Km's ago, and the ute has never run so smooth or well, i am a converted man :)

Had no fuel filter issues or anything.

Regarding servos, i think there is no difference between biodiesel and dino diesel, and bad batch of either can make a big mess of your fuel system. More likely to get a bad batch of biodiesel though i suppose since its newer in a lot of places. Find a good supplier and your home and hosed :)

[RODEONICK]

it does seem that people running lower blends eg b20 don't seem to get the cleaning of tank and lines effect. Or other words filters clogged with gunge reminents from years of dino. I still hope that you carry a spare filter though. Good to hear your experiences with biodiesel thanks for sharing.:thumb:
Cheers Nick.

[reastwood]

I tried a few tanks of the local B20 (SAFF), in my Hi-Tech Common Rail Diesel and my fuel economy dropped by about 10%, and as they charge the same amount as normal diesel I stopped using it. I do however use it in my 1958 tractor which doesn't like the new ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel), the B20 gives it that extra lubrication it needs.

Rick.