How tube is too tube?

[Otis]

How do you guys like your hardcore trucks? Do you like complete tube buggies, or do you think they start losing personality when they're 100% tube?

[wooders]

IMHO Tube has it's place - but it's nice to see a bit of an underlying manufacturers brand......Plus panel rock rash adds true character ;)

[Otis]

I agree Wooders. OE panels give credit and perspective to tyre sizes etc.

Hey Wooders,

Where do you get the time to respond to so many forums? Are you living the great Australian TJ owners dream...Compo?

[Heywood Jablowme]

Yup, I like a car to look like a car...

Otherwise it comes back to who has the most money and development time.

An GQ/80/Zook/Jeep/etc with big tires, lockers and barwork to me tackling something hard, is lots better than watching something that the looks like a monkey bar going thru the section.


YMMV

[Not enough lovin]

I like the idea behind TUBE, however i think they need to keep it in perspective!

The Yanks wentto ugly full tube things and now have realised that sponsors and spectators were still more interested in the guys running Semi-bodied Rigs!

They are still all tube but they make them look like a Jeep or toyota etc etc.

I think after a while the jungle gym theme will also die here in OZ.

I will be sticking to a full or semi-bodied Rock Rig as i think it also adds more caracter!

It also give the crowd and spectators and also the sponsors the ability to relate back to something, i was recently at XRCC in Qld and noticed more people were looking at the FULL/Semi-bodied RIGS more so than the Full tube buggies as they could relate it back to there own vehicles and may use some of the ideas they see on there own rigs!!

[wooders]

Hey Wooders,
Where do you get the time to respond to so many forums? Are you living the great Australian TJ owners dream...Compo?


Just dedicated mate.....Well dedicated sounds slightly less derogatory than obsessed ;)

[big red]

i like to see at least the front half look like a vehicle, but then seeing the rear end flexing with out all the panel work to get in the way is good for me.
maybe i just love utes ::)
shane ;D

[Slunnie]

Otis, I tend to like something that resembles something on the road. Buggies like your zook are absolutely brilliant, though when you see engineering master pieces they are unreal to watch though not really relevant or adaptable technically to the streeter. I love watching Pete Antunac yellow beast beacause it is so capable, but vehicles like Nick Mannells GU, Alan Duncans LJ, Lil Red Bitch etc can all be made reality.

[AJ]

Full body and factory based chassis for me.

Keep it real so the punters can relate to it.

[zooks rock]

even the american "full tube" buggys have factory bonnets on them for people to relate to

[wooders]

even the american "full tube" buggys have factory bonnets on them for people to relate to


But relate what to....I mean it's just a bonnet & grill - rarely anything else is factory - nope whilst they might be impressive to watch - they aren't as much fun to watch IMHO....

Guess I'm a V8 Touring Car sorta guy not a F1 ;)

[CRISPY]

Guess I'm a V8 Touring Car sorta guy not a F1 ;)


yeah i guess thats how it goes u cant really relate to the F1 cars but the ford and holden V8 supercars u can (even tho there are nothing like the ones from the showroom) and i think 4wds are the same. tube buggies hav the instant wow factor compared to the full or partially full bodied ones but when u actually get up close and see wot the owner has done with the bodied car to make it go so well makes u really go wow. thats just my 2 cents worth ne way.

[big red]

its a lot harder to make a bodied rig capable so people appreciate the extra effort.

[Himble]

Yeah.... I like the idea of Q-ship rigs i.e. something that looks (at least from a distance! ::) ) like a "showroom" job but has serious mods in reality!! :)

While the prado is our holiday bus, for longer distance travelling, the next project on the board will be a factory looking, clip on panelwork, full tube chassis, but with engineers cert and reg. [not unlike a stadium truck or a US truggy with a live front axle but enclosed cab and reg]

This link of friends 80, who is at Cruise Moab this week [ :'( :'( :'(couldnt make it this year...] who has taken that idea alot the way, and still developing it, as it was finished last week.

http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/warwagon/tz_shortbus_page3.htm

I dont think the industry, or the country is big enough to support the way of the US, with full unregistered vehicles, [although slee offroads 80 is on the road] as the cost of such for the small amount of use just doesnt add up. Offroad racing, mud racing, stadium trucks in this country, all adage to this fact at the moment I believe, and the large manufacturers and accessory makers all want something recognisable

The last project we set up with the wheelbase, track,and weight distribution we wanted for the next truck, which worked very well, but we ran a cast block 454 [we moved the engine/g/box/t/case back 75mm to compensate on weight 50/50 front rear] instead of alloy. Although reg rules might be hard with a alloy 502 now, so the option of a Toyota 4.5 twin turboed, is being "weighed" up at the moment. [the 80 was a sweet thing 4.5 turbo intercooled, and so much potential left on it as well.]

The plan is to use the cab for anti intrusion, doors, windows, windscreen, firewall, wipers etc on a tube chassis, the plan will be to make it look in proportion on the road, like the last project, and run 40" swampers offroad, and 37MTRs for rally, offroad, road duty.

The more modifications you do, but with the car looking in proportion as it drives by, the better the work, and the better to watch I reckon.

[Otis]

Had a look at that 80, and it's an awesome bit of gear!
Link below:
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/warwagon/tz_shortbus_page3.htm

That design gives you all the robust traits of a big rig - engineering, track, engine etc in a lighter shorter package. Way cool...

Cheers,

Pat

He should be sending me some good wheeling pics in a week or 2 when he returns from moab too, looking forward to those, will put the link up when he does.

here is a link to his other truck last year.

http://www.offroader.com.au/trips/readers/usa/moab/cruise-moab-2002.cfm

[big red]

the warwagon looks a bit too short [proportion wise] but could be up around the 100" mark.
what wheel base is it darren?

Believe it or not, it is standard wheelbase of an 80.....

Its just the 40" swampers making it look like its been shortened.

[wooders]

Man that's one of the best looking 80's I've even seen - would be good to see more get chopped up like that :-*

I can post some more soon, just updating my page as the server crashed and lost all my images, but heres afew for starters.......

A red one here...
http://www.the-shed.net/photos.php?Pagetype=3&pid=165


War wagon in testing here
http://www.the-shed.net/photos.php?Pagetype=3&pid=167

Green 80 ute here
http://www.the-shed.net/photos.php?Pagetype=3&pid=169

Warwagon owners employee with recovery vehicle on testing day.
http://www.the-shed.net/photos.php?Pagetype=3&pid=168

[Heywood Jablowme]

you should listen to the YEllow one, i think its
http://www.offroader.com.au/video/theshed/RockerKnocker-Part2.wmv

sounds like an electric car.....

The guys have just returned from moab, afew pics posted here for those who wanted to look.

http://www.sleeoffroad.com/trails/Cruise_Moab_2003/Rusty_Nail.htm

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139457&perpage=25&pagen umber=1

[MTB4x4MAD]

Pete Antunac's cruiser is a great example of how to use tube. Just enough to help it's capability but not too much to make it unrecognisable. Duncan's cruiser is also well built.
Sam Keck's new Aztec has gone a little bit far as it barely looks like a zook.
The new trailcraft buggy is a bit excessive. It never really started out as a vehicle and is difficult to relate too. By the way, how did they register it for the competition?
Hope we don't see too many tube buggies in the tuff truck.

It would appear the too tube buggies and getting insurance for them may be what set tough truck back this year.... according to the thread elsewhere here.

Hopefully this will see modified road driven cars make a come back.

[baby_troupe]

I Think that this one is just tooooooo tube.
http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/albums/CalROCS-Fernley-May2002/3202_G.jpg

[baby_troupe]

But at least it is strong
http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/albums/CalROCS-Fernley-May2002/3236_G.jpg

Walker Evens whose caris behind theyellow one i think, has made some cool looking trucks in the last few years.

[baby_troupe]

At least his resembles something. The yellow one.... I just don't know what it is supposed to be based on.

With those small steering arms, small diffs, that panel fit, and the style, Id say its supposed to be a jeep...... ;D

[my45]

Mabey a TJ? ;D ;D

[baby_troupe]

Who knows. I was thinking a willys?

[wooders]

http://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/moon.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/madfinger.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/punchface.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/twak.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/slap.gif

[baby_troupe]

http://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/moon.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/madfinger.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/punchface.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/twak.gifhttp://ausjeepoffroad.com/forums/graemlins/slap.gif

LOL
I was wonderring when you were going to reply.

[my45]

i wouuldf have thought a "yes i know :-[ ;D it looks a lot like a Jeep to me" would have been a more appropreate reply wooders ;D ;D ;D

LOL

[wooders]

I'm surprised there was no comments about it being inverted too ;)

[my45]

The roof would have crushed in if it was a jeep ;) ;D

[bigbluemav]

My 2c Worth:

All types of motor sport that have a road driven variety has a minority of "extreme vehicles", that we all ogle and marvel at the engineering. This story applies streetmachines, modified bikes, fourbies and whatever.

The problems arise when there are events in which the standard of vehicle that most of us own and drive, have to compete against the ogled type.

In fourby land there needs to be events that we can go and marvel at these engineering masterpieces, but also compete in events in the vehicles that we drive to work in.

I would think that the vast majority of readers of this mag and subscribers to this and other forums cannot afford to have a purely play truck.

Just what I think.


Regards

Dave McInnes, Redcliffe Qld

[baby_troupe]

Dave.
There are different classes for different types of vehicles for the events people participate in. There are even stages which the standard vehicles can not compete.
As for events for our everyday vehicles, there are a few & there was one recently called the "Offroad Clubkhana"
There is info on http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=66

Well the soone rthe sport becomes more proffesional, by getting CAMS or someone involved, all the insurance issues etc will become a thing of the past.

Until then , half these beaters, at comps without trained marshalls and first aiders, etc and no crowd control, or assessor/oversseer, we will continue to have the issue of events being stopped, cancelled, or postponed.

[my45]

yep, im pretty sure that a few of the "marshalls/recovery people" have done less 4x4 tham me! I've seen some of the stupidest mistakes made by these people ??? :-[

And they are all vaulenteers, and the sport needs them, but when a car catches fire, or falls roof and windows down in a water hole, the competitors at least deserve someone who has an idea to try and salvage a risky situation....

They just need to put in some training time with some I feel to ensure there are some leaders,a s well as followers when safety and a level head are required.

[baby_troupe]

It's funny that some people critisize the marshalls / helpers & do not know that most of these people are not getting anything out of doing the work apart from just being there & knowing that you have helped out in some way.
This goes for 4x4 events & motorsports.

Yes.... have been a marshall, event organiser, competitor, and spectator....... at many events, Great fun, and some even give you lunch, and all th emore reason to have some trained people there, save the bloke who is helping out being left wondering "did I do the right thing" when someones life could be at stake......

[baby_troupe]

That's right.
I think the least the organisors could do is when they are getting everyone signed up is try to get them at least trained in First Aid. I know this will come at a cost & the spectatators will probably complain about the extra dollar admission fee, but at least that will be a start.
As for recovery training, that can be a bit more complicated. Maybe they could have a chat to some of the nearby clubs & get experienced volunteers from them.

[my45]

I wasn't trying to put anyone down, i was just trying to say that mabey each event within the comp should have one experianced superviser, for everyone's sake.

I think we are all agreeing with you there.

[baby_troupe]

Darren,
I think it is because he is young that he is not sure if someone is for him or against him.
http://images.animfactory.com/animations/war/guns/over_under_shotgun_turning_md_wht.gif

[my45]

I wasn't trying to put you guys down either ;D ;)

Na, i just though that i might of writen it in a way that sugested something that i wasn't :)

I think I thought, I mean, what I wanted to say was, not that I was trying not to, was to try and say I, when I started, meant to be, thay i didnt meant to sound like I said what I wasnt meaning to say?

Is that what you said????? :P

[baby_troupe]

OK I will try to get some pics for this section today to put it back on the right subject.

[spazbot]

I recon you cant have enough tube.
Whos cares if dosnt look like a specific model of vechile. Most of then are custom from the ground up with a bonnet or grille thrown on, the arnt intended to look like your daily driver pos. They are build for extreme driving situations.
Sam's and trailcrafts buggies are great and will drive just about anything thrown at em. Its just the way the sport is progressing, ppl wanna see them driver bigger and harder stuff and to do that your going to need bigger and more advanced rigs.
ID rather see ppl get out there at tuff truck and DRIVE IT instead of pulling thier winch at the first obsticle and pussy footing around casue they dont wanna scratch thier paint work.

[yota]

At the end of the day full tubes are great to watch but personally as a spectator at a comp I prefer to watch the semi/full bodied vehicles.I really enjoyed it when the comp scene was starting to really take off,when you had the likes of Duncan and Pete who started out in the full bodied fourties,Bill Lai in wild willy,all the up and coming full bodied patrols,cruisers etc...when porters was still open!!!!

My mates and I have discussed this topic many times round the fire and pretty much agree the comp scene is starting to get too wild with some of the tube vehicles that are doing the comp circuits.

Its sort of like when nissan ran the godzillas at bathurst back in ??"...for years the spectators came to see the big rear wheel drive V8s do battle,then all of a sudden we see a bloody high powered four wheel drive turbo thing come along and kick @%#e!Spectators didnt like it.


Look at the tubes in the states,anyone seen Scott Godfreys tubed raptor?....Scotts would be great to watch though,or Barry Toledanos FROG!!!..Fair dinkum its supposed to resemble a 92 wrangler....what an ugly bit of gear!!!!!


Hey Pat,heres an idea....get Roothy to lay off the XXXX for a couple of weeks,fly some of the yanks tubed trucks out and watch em do battle with ours!Then we would see a turn out for the tubes!... TUBED TOUGH TRUCK CHALLENGE-YANKS TAKE ON AUSSIES!....hmmm didnt think so,Roothy wouldnt agree anyway.

I dont think its whether or not the vehicles are becoming too tubed,if they wanna build em bring em on but in the end its the semi(i mean a bit of tube work here and there)/full bodied hi-lux,cruisers,patrols,jeeps,sierras,rangies etc that have made the competition scene the way it is today....its what the majority travel so many hours for to see...these vehicles battle it out for tough truck honours,I dont really wanna see at the next tough truck a fully tubed vehicle take the crown,and if thats gonna be the case, why in the future would anyone bother spending big money on their truck to compete with a purpose built REGISTERED(we all know the engineers who will pass em but lets face it,how many would pass a police vehicle without gettin pulled over,mines one) tubed vehicle????

......why Pat.....you thinkin of toobin,my guess is you wont,good topic though,i think this is a hot topic at the moment.

[Reddo]

I agree with yota, i much prefer to see a full-bodied 40 and any other 4wd for that matter doing the circuit, instead of a tubed machine. I mean getting a tubed buggies and placing a zook bonnet on it doesn’t make my chop.

James 8)

[rogue]

i dont mind either as long as they give it a real go (when wheeling), in saying that i'd expect a tube buggy doing much harder lines to prove itself , tube looks good(imo) and is stronger therefore safer.

all these people talking about tube buggies lossing their identity ? and what about otis ? apart from some panels its far from a zook , it may as well be all tube .

but when it comes to watching it all depends on the driver and how they deal with whats in front of them , a panelled carwinching yawn ! and tube buggy not giving it a real all or nothing go yawn ! if you go hard no one cares about your tube or lack of ?

[BLU-125]

What we are seeing, surely, is a sport which is splitting into several disciplines. The Winch Challenge/OB Challenge vehicles will retain their links to production vehicles, whilst the Rock Crawlers will build buggies:

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22563

I don't expect to see F1 cars & V8 supercars in the same race!

[Humpy]

I'm a big fan of the full tube buggies.

I want to build one, but they are a little impractical for normal 4wd trips.

[Reddo]

I'm a big fan of the full tube buggies.

I want to build one, but they are a little impractical for normal 4wd trips.


Yeah, espesh when you hit a bog hole, or it starts to rain, and then to top it off the wind gets up ;D

James 8)

[brodiebuilt]

My thoughts on Tube type buggies.
Great for the sport! I see them as a seperate stream of 4by competition same as V8 extreme trucks, Touring class, and Range Rovers. (threw the Rangie in to get a bit)
I do strongly believe that the vehicle should comply with a silhouette of an existing vehicle, similar to the Speedway Super Saloons.
I can also see single seater tube chasis vehicles with a 1 or 2 piece fibre glass Nissan, Toyota or whatever body at 3/4 size on standard width diffs. I beleive that this type of vehicle woult have a superior balance and center of gravity to the 2 seater tube chasis vehicles and more importantly spectator apeal and that inturn will help draw sponsor ship.

I've had my say and while the passenger side air bag is not looking..... The only thing stopping me starting a project like this is all the back orders that I have however if any one in South Brissie or surrounds are looking at building one of these please drop me a PM

[Humpy]

I dont think they need to look like any production trucks. They are a class of their own.

Some of the yank rockcrawlers try to look like jeeps or whatever but I think they just look wierd.

I do like the brands badge, grill or bonnet to say what the majority of parts came from.

Such as RUFFs Budgie
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/P1010803.JPG

Or the Lockless Monster
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/buggy_23_1_0401.jpg

[taziiy]

Such as RUFFs Budgie
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/P1010803.JPG





The dog on the wheel gives it the finishing touch

[zook37]

Whoa, I just looked at the date this was originally posted, over a year ago. Aaah well, better a late opinion than none at all.

I much prefer custom fourbies if they retain a little of their manufacturer DNA. Complete custom frames tend to be a little boring IMO. People want to see what potentially their vehicles could become (even if they never have the funding to do so ;) )

That said I am still partial to well built tube frame vehicles, hell I used to race one. A custom tube buggy based on a VW floor pan with a worked 1600 VW motor. Granted it was only rear wheel drive and not a rock climber, but it was fast and a hell of a lot of fun to drive. ;D 8)