Snatch Points vs. Tow Points

[sudso]

So just what is safe to snatch from?
Not that I'm really asking, I have my own view of what should and shouldn't be used as a snatch point.
Reason being that snatching increases the load on the attachment point around 10x more than towing a vehicle out?

Just thought I'd bring up the subject once again in the name of safety.

I was looking at the recovery loop attached to the rear bar of my recently purchased Bundy the other day, it looks like a factory fitted accessory but after having a good close look there's no way I'd snatch using that.

I've seen some pretty risky recoveries and the majority usually come off without incident but when they dont it's usually a snatching related incident.

Keep it safe fella's
Cheers

[BushBoy]

Yep, we ripped a towbar off a hilux today when attempting to snatch it out of the deep bog. He didn't have any other hooks apart from the one on the front. We ended up snatching from his axle. It's also amazing how people don't realise that it's a good idea to stand back during a recovery ::) I gave up trying to give advice today but thats one bit of advice that i thought was absolutely neccesary.

[luxa]

Yep, we ripped a towbar off a hilux today when attempting to snatch it out of the deep bog.

Maybe the snatch strap wasn't the correct recovery option. Granted the snatch is a great invention (;D) but most often when snatching goes wrong we are expecting the near impossible from it!!!! Its also amazing how much more effective a snatch strap can be if a bit of preliminary work is done to clear the wheels / diff's of the mud beforehand.

He didn't have any other hooks apart from the one on the front. We ended up snatching from his axle.


:o FROM THE AXLE :o

I've always been taught that as a BIG NO NO :o
You risk damaging the suspension mounts, Buggering shockers, crushing brakelines....... and thats from the rear axle. The Front.... well you may never get a wheel alignment that comes out straight again!!!!!!

If there are no recovery points - aside from asking the most common question (WTF was the car doing there in the first place) use the spring hanger/chassis point as the next best option.

Luxa

Bushboy - Good to see you stuck with your guns when it comes to safety!!!!

[Peter ST_R]

Hi

This is always a topic of debate and one often commented on with little reason. I have known plenty of people who insist that proper recovery hooks must be fitted to attach a snatch strap to, but little thought goes into how these hooks are fitted. The common recovery hook you buy from any 4wd outlet has 2 1/2 inch bolts that hold it to the chassis (often holes are drilled to accommodate this which is illegal unless approved by an engineer). While the hook is rated to a certain level how do you know what the mounting fixtures are rated to? Have a good look at the tow points on your vehicle and decide for yourself if they are sufficient to attach a snatch strap to. The tow points on the front of my 2004 Navara ST-R are made from 5mm plate welded securely (4" of weld) onto the side of the chassis rail. For this to fail the tow point would have to pull a large chunk of steel out of the chassis rail, yet some people still insist I require a bolted on recovery point. I would rather trust the 4" of weld than two 1/2" bolts through the chassis. As for rearward recovery, an engineered towbar is fine but don't slip the eye of the strap over the tow ball (it's not that the tow ball will break as they survive car accidents with laden trailers attached - the strap may slip off when under tension and become a slingshot). If you have a tongue style bar then take the ball off and insert a rated shackle through the hole and if you have a Haymen Reece type take the tongue out, stick the eye of the strap where the tongue goes and secure it with the retaining pin.

Cheers

[Jarrod.]

Hi

This is always a topic of debate and one often commented on with little reason. I have known plenty of people who insist that proper recovery hooks must be fitted to attach a snatch strap to, but little thought goes into how these hooks are fitted. The common recovery hook you buy from any 4wd outlet has 2 1/2 inch bolts that hold it to the chassis (often holes are drilled to accommodate this which is illegal unless approved by an engineer). While the hook is rated to a certain level how do you know what the mounting fixtures are rated to? Have a good look at the tow points on your vehicle and decide for yourself if they are sufficient to attach a snatch strap to. The tow points on the front of my 2004 Navara ST-R are made from 5mm plate welded securely (4" of weld) onto the side of the chassis rail. For this to fail the tow point would have to pull a large chunk of steel out of the chassis rail, yet some people still insist I require a bolted on recovery point. I would rather trust the 4" of weld than two 1/2" bolts through the chassis. As for rearward recovery, an engineered towbar is fine but don't slip the eye of the strap over the tow ball (it's not that the tow ball will break as they survive car accidents with laden trailers attached - the strap may slip off when under tension and become a slingshot). If you have a tongue style bar then take the ball off and insert a rated shackle through the hole and if you have a Haymen Reece type take the tongue out, stick the eye of the strap where the tongue goes and secure it with the retaining pin.

Cheers


thats true i have exact same navar and i use the front tow points when i need them and people have told me that it is very unsafe to use itbut as you said id rater trust the 4mm weld the a 1/2" bolt

[et4wd]

Luxa, i recon you are on the right track with that comment about expecting to much from a snath strap ;) I have used in the past with a great positive effect a drag chain. :o

This is only when I deem the truck is stuck beyond the capabilities of a strap, hook the chain up, take up the tension and slowly pull the stuck vehicle out.

It takes all the "shock" effect out of the recovery which is when a strap will fail. ;D

Also keep ya gear clean :) I have seen straps snap due to them not being looked after :P

Chuck them in the wash with the clothes like my mate Paul did "RAGMAN" that way when your missus hang's out the clothes she hangs the strap out too ;D ;D

Later.

[sudso]

Luxa, i recon you are on the right track with that comment about expecting to much from a snath strap ;) I have used in the past with a great positive effect a drag chain. :o

This is only when I deem the truck is stuck beyond the capabilities of a strap, hook the chain up, take up the tension and slowly pull the stuck vehicle out.

It takes all the "shock" effect out of the recovery which is when a strap will fail. ;D

Also keep ya gear clean :) I have seen straps snap due to them not being looked after :P

Chuck them in the wash with the clothes like my mate Paul did "RAGMAN" that way when your missus hang's out the clothes she hangs the strap out too ;D ;D

Later.

Likewise we should not expect too much from Kombi Van recovery points too, lol!
Hope the desert wanderers kombi club are taking note! ;D

[et4wd]

Ha Ha, that's a good point! one good thing did come out of it though, Nige got a new recovery point to weld on the 45 LOL ;D

Later,

[sudso]

Ha Ha, that's a good point! one good thing did come out of it though, Nige got a new recovery point to weld on the 45 LOL ;D

Later,

;D ;D ;D

[tariadamar]

hey i was just wondering for rear recovery points is it ok to have eye bolts as the towbar bolts and recovery points. i also have two rocovery hooks off a truck welded to gether and slips nicly into the haem and reese slot.

[Peter ST_R]

hey i was just wondering for rear recovery points is it ok to have eye bolts as the towbar bolts and recovery points. i also have two rocovery hooks off a truck welded to gether and slips nicly into the haem and reese slot.

Eye bolts are used for lifting and should be stamped with a SWL (safe working load) for this purpose. Assuming you are using an 8 ton snatch you would need to have a minimum of an 8 ton eye bolt (this would be one big eye bolt!!!). Additionally, the SWL on an eye bolt is for the force applied in the same axis as the eye, pulling at an angle across this axis can cause the bolt to fail.

Personally, I would not use an eyebolt as a recovery point.

Cheers

[tariadamar]

for my recovery i use my hooks in the towball slot which is directly bolted onto the chasy cross member and i have been pulled at full snatch off this no problems the eyebolts i use for sidways winching and pulling my tail down. and they are 1.8 tone eye bolts.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

tariadamar, welds really aren't a good idea for anything related to snatching loads. Even a good weld, and are you that good that you can tell what the inside of the metal looks like without an X-Ray? Even the professionals use X-Rays to ensure that welds are good before relying on them!!

But, say you do get a good weld, the process of welding creates a change in the structure of the metal and creates an area more prone to shattering under shock loads just off the edge of the weld!! It is for this reason that recovery HOOKS are BOLTED onto the chassis using Hi-Tensile bolts rather than welded!! Even bolting a hook onto a tab of metal that has been welded to the chassis isn't a good idea!! Welding your 2 recovery hooks together has DESTROYED the rating of the hooks, and in fact CREATED a weakness that is very likely to snap under the shock loads associated with snatch recoveries! You might get away with it for a while, but there is a great likelihood that it won't stand those forces for very long!! And EVERY TIME you use it, you make it more likely that it will break!!

As far as the eyes are concerned, they are NOT rated for shock loads!! That 1.8 tonne rating is for lifting only and it is so low because of the axis issues that Peter ST-R mentioned, AND because the THREAD is the only bit doing the work and it is NOT STRONG under shock loads! That is where the thing will come apart at loads in excess of its capability to hold!! If you've only got 1.8 tonne eyes, make sure that your snatch strap is rated lower than that, or else you WILL have a lump of metal rated at 1.8 tonnes (and probably weighing about 500 grams) heading at high velocity towards someones' head one day. Do you REALLY want to be resonsible for someone's death?? 'Cos that is a real risk if you continue to use 1.8tonne rated eyes for a snatch recovery on anything bigger than a quad bike!! Again, the fact that you've gotten away with it until now has actually increased the likelihood that it WILL break in the future!

So from now on in, you HAVE been told that you are using unsafe recovery hooks and eyes! There is an ever increasing likelihood that continuing to use them WILL result in at the least damage to someone else's vehicle, if not injury or worse!

[Mick.]

for my recovery i use my hooks in the towball slot which is directly bolted onto the chasy cross member and i have been pulled at full snatch off this no problems the eyebolts i use for sidways winching and pulling my tail down. and they are 1.8 tone eye bolts.
Peter is dead right. ;) It's only a matter of time before something on you 4wd brakes and it may kill someone.

1.8 tonne is stuff all. :o Those holes your talking about are for one thing only and thats for your safety chain on your trailer not to snatch or winch off.

Imagine this flying at you. This is a hook off a patrol.
http://warrenl.gallery.netspace.net.au/albums/Miscellaneous-4X4-photos/000_0355_002.jpg
Cheers Mick.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Hey Mick, I take it that hook had been bent a bit before the attempted recovery?? (and maybe even straightened; something to start the metal fatigue anyway?) DID the piece of hook stay in the strap when it broke off?? Did it damage anything on the far end??

[Mick.]

Hey Mick, I take it that hook had been bent a bit before the attempted recovery?? (and maybe even straightened; something to start the metal fatigue anyway?) DID the piece of hook stay in the strap when it broke off?? Did it damage anything on the far end??
Yes Peter it had metal fatigue. When we had a close look at it there was a little rusty mark where it was obvious it had been cracked for a while.

The hook was off Crushers Patrol not mine and it happened while doing a snatch recovery deminstration by the Central Coast 4wd club at the Central Coast caravan, 4wd & camping expo about a month ago.

We had my winch recovery dampener on the snatch strap. When it snaped the snatch strap dropped to the ground and the hook was lucky to be a couple of metres from the 4wd. ;)

So it just goes to show you how well a dampening banket of any sort can save your 4wd or better still your life.

Chers Mick.

[matt_ratt]

hmmmm... even though this is somthing spoken about often you still seem to get complacant. i am going to go and check my recovery points tonight for fatuge and signs too look for that i may not be aware of?

[Peter ST_R]

hmmmm... even though this is somthing spoken about often you still seem to get complacant. i am going to go and check my recovery points tonight for fatuge and signs too look for that i may not be aware of?

Good idea! I think we all assume our 4wd is in good nic until something lets go.

Any lifting gear I use at work is inspection and tagged every six months and we checK it over each time we use it. On the other hand, I don't often take the time to check over my recovery points on my 4wd and when it comes time to use them they are obscured by mud/sand and can't be inspected.

It's sad how we forget about health & safety when we aren't at work. I will make sure my recovery points are given the once over before my next trip too.

Cheers

[tariadamar]

no sarry i didn't mean i welded the hooks on. just have two welded back to back and they fit in th tow ball slot. they look like a rams head coming out. these are like 15 20 tonne load ratting they are strong and big and just fit into the slot. in noway are they held in place with a weld it is just to keep them lined up for when i take it in and out. and on the frount i have you standard black rat tow points. thanks for the consern thoough.

[tariadamar]

the hooks only have two very small welds on them and it is only to hold the two hooks to gether for conveinece and the eye bolts have never been snatched off as the are two far under my car they were only their as a posibility if some thing really needed it now i know not to. and i am in the proces of making a new tow bar, is the hem and reese slot a desent recovery point if directly braced to the chasy cross member. sorry for any misconseptions as i only have really been pulled out forwards.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Sorry tariadamar, the two very small welds will have destroyed the rating of the hooks!! While in your particular instance, it may have only weakened a very little bit, anything that has a rating and has been welded AT ALL is now NO LONGER RATED and would you consider snatching of a non-rated hook? If you use them and they fail, damaging or injuring (or worse) you will be deemed to have used a NON-RATED hook!!

Technically, towbars are meant to be manufactured and tested to comply with an Aus std, as well as being 'certified' as complying. So anything that you 'make yourself' either should be tested/engineered and approved,\; or made to an approved design and certified as complying by the engineering dept of the Registration Authority!

Nevertheless, a Hayman Reece type towbar properly fitted to a vehicle, (without ANY EXTRA welds or drilling) is normally considered in the 4WD world to be an acceptable recovery point, (just don't ask Hayman Reece to put it in writing, 'cos they WON'T and you will then have been formally advised by the manufacturer that it is not suitable for snatch recoveries!) Some people are wary of inserting the eye of the strap into the square section and pushing the pin thru the eye, 'cos the pin might bend!! But, the pin is rated for TOWING, with a shear load rating somewhere up around 42 tonnes, if it bends during a snatch, you were overdoing it, or you've got a WHOLE LOT MORE issues to be worrying about!! (Like what the heck happened to the chassis??!!) You can resolve this by using one of the manufactured inserts with a rated hook mounted in a square section that fits into the receiver and you use the pin to hold that in place!! If you use the type with a bow shackle on the end, make sure the shackle is free to rotate around the pin axis into the direction of pull!! (usually vertical, anything else puts the stress on the thread of the pin and can open the shackle!!!) The good thing about using a tow bar in this way is that they have to brace across the vehicles stong points (or chassis) and spread the load forward into the strongest part of the car!! The rated attachments just make it easier to use!

Hope that helps clear up the confusion!

[Humpy]

Just because something is rated doesn’t make it stronger, it just says that at the time of testing it was strong enough, with a safety factor. Dropping a rated piece of equipment can cause hairline cracking, so even being rated doesn’t guarantee its strength right now.

Lifting equipment is rated with a Safe Working Load, this includes a safety factor, it is nowhere near breaking at its safe working load. A snatch strap is designated as a breaking load, ie theoretically a 8t strap will break at 8t. A 3t SWL shackle might not break until 15t (I’m not sure what the safety factor is)

You could argue that a 3t shackle is fine to use with an 8t strap and most of the time this would be completely true, of course, as Peter and others have mentioned wear and or bad loading (pulling sideways) will reduce the breaking load. Personally id rather be hit with a broken strap than a flying shackle

Welding will cause a reduction in strength, when designing boats we use the welded strength of the aluminium, which is approx half the unwelded strength. Steel will have a different factor. If the reduced strength has been allowed for it won’t be a problem. In taridamars example the hooks were rated to 20t, welding will not have reduced their strength enough to be a concern. If they were rated at 3t and he’d welded them, stay out of firing range :o

People often assume that the chassis is un breakable, this is not true. Gonads ripped a suspension link and the part of the chassis it was welded to off at tuff truck. Bolting a rated hook to your chassis with high tensile bolts is not necessarily good enough. Chassis are usually only 3mm or so thick, with two 12mm bolts that allows only 72mm² of mild steel to pick up the load of an approx 450mm² rated hook, hardly seems fair. A 100mm long plate welded onto the chassis has probably 600mm² which even with the reduction in welded strength is stronger than two bolts

[tariadamar]

since my dad gets the hooks for free i have got 2 new ones and bolted rather thean weld to fix that problem. my towbar is much better than before enev though it is not engineered i had it looked at by an engineer as engineer certificates cost money. it was more like 2 at different stages. and it is conected in three parts to each chasiy rail and the cross member. so if this tow bar was to rip off it would tack the rear meter of my car with it. thanks for the help if u guys have any ideas for new to bars. i have two towbars 100mm each about 1.5m long and with heem and reese slots already bolted in. thanks again

[tariadamar]

these two towbars are not from my car so i cannot just bolt them on.