Steep descents

[Humpy]

I recently drove down a fairly steep hill with a few rock ledges in it. As i drove off one of the ledges I was pretty close to rolling.

My question is, Whats the best way to get down really steep hills? is it safer to creep down under brakes or a bit faster with engine braking?

I crept down really slowly under brakes, because my gearing isnt low enough.

[Humpy]

The hill itself

http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/albums/album45/aac.sized.jpg

[Wilesy]

It all depends on if it is wet or not……..

I can’t see a problem in creeping down with your brakes slightly on; I do it as I have to having an auto, as there is no other option.

The main problem in using your brakes when it is wet is that it could cause the wheels to loose traction as the front usually bites first and you need all of your wheels to be rolling at the same speed to remain in control.

The reason we go so slow is to avoid damage……

If you are lucky enough to own a Nissan Patrol, or a Landrover, they are blessed with a transmission handbrake and all you have to do is click it a few cogs and it will creep down as slow as any diesel without any problems, with all of the wheels remaining at the same rolling speed.

This doesn’t apply to other vehicles as the hand brake is attached to the rear wheels only.

[baby_troupe]

Be a good idea to book in for basic driver awareness for Feb with Wayne, as if you want to go on the Newnes Trip, I have that as a prerequisite as there are steps larger than those.
In your suzuki, brakes are your friend.
Engine braking as you drop off a ledge is only good in a sierra with rock crawler gears. The low 1st in a suzi is a touch too high for that, as I nearly found out a number of years ago & almost rolled end over end.

[slowlux]

i found that in my HiLux, steep decents are best tackled in low-range 1st gear. But thats only in the dry, im not game enough to try in the wet :-[

[baby_troupe]

Not that much harder in the wet, if it is rock.
Just have to take your time.
Clay in the wet would be no joy.

[slowlux]

yeah, i just have to get the balls to do it!! plus, my tyres aren't exactly gripmeister 2000's!, olympic overlanders, big. But not really all that knobly.

[baby_troupe]

Should get a genuine Mud tyre for that sort of stuff.
ATs are OK, but when it is a little wet, the MT really comes into its own.

[Link]

On really steep hills in my auto before I put in crawler gears, I'd use the handbrake a few notches up, and also use both feet.. it allows you to brake very lightly if required and also react quickly and drive should you start slipping.. The crawler gears were a great investment though for an auto and now I can just drive down..

[lovemud]

Use 1st gear low range if the truck tends to run down just apply light brake,

i find in mine sometimes that low first is too slow using the engine as a brake... takes forever to get anywhere..... so i use low second and gently apply the brake to slow the decent without going anywhere near the clutch.... seems to work for me..... but then each vehicle is different.

[Humpy]

i find in mine sometimes that low first is too slow using the engine as a brake...
I'm Jealous!

[slowlux]

sometimes 1st gear is too slow for the descent your tackling, it really depends on how steep the hill is.

hehe they don't gear rodeos very high........ 120kph is pushin it on the highway

[slowlux]

hahaha, you think thats slow mate. My hilux is pushing it at only 105km/h!!!! it's so frustrating on a long trip, takes an extra two hours to get anywhere!!!

hahaha, you think thats slow mate. My hilux is pushing it at only 105km/h!!!! it's so frustrating on a long trip, takes an extra two hours to get anywhere!!!

hehe need another gear eh?? i once had a hilux deisel... 2.2 (2WD)litre.... was a slow assed piece of equipment...... 90 clicks was flatout!!!

[Humpy]

I had a bike with a speedo once, and it could do 60km/h down hills

[nqgu]

hahaha, you think thats slow mate. My hilux is pushing it at only 105km/h!!!! it's so frustrating on a long trip, takes an extra two hours to get anywhere!!!


When I worked for a Govt department that will remain nameless, we used to race our dual cab hiluxes about 1985/6 models home to the depot (could be as far as 50 k). Everyone used to ask me how it was that my hilux was alwasy a bit faster -110 max while they could only do 105 kph.

I never ever told them, but the Lux was so high geared, a complete mismatch with the engine power/torque curve that you could get them to go 5 kph faster for a few kilometres at a time if you could just get the engine revs up a tad, then they would slowly drop back to 105 kph. So I used to get the thing on full song, then slip the clutch really quicky with a short sharp dab, sure enough it would be good enough for about another 5 kph for a few kilometres, just enough to get ahead of the car I was racing.

Not good for the clutch but I never heard the taxpayers complain :-)

[slowlux]

yeah i find my hilux has major 5th gear drop out as soon as there is a slight descent in the road, rweally annoying

so turbo the bugga, i can push 140 outta mine and thats on 33's so im probably doin 150. mine is a 90 model though.

[slowlux]

yeah well there you go buddy, im runnin like 32's and my trucks a dual cab tray 87, and put into consideration i've only got a 2.0L engine thats a fair bit of weight for a 3Y to pull. I'd turbo it but the engine's not worth it

[cruiser1]

How about that article on loose surface descents in this months mag :o I have tried it to a certain degree on some slopes but tend to loose my nerve on the gas pedal :P The idea of accelerating down a steep incline gets the adrenalin pumpin. Especially when your about to go over the edge. Like they say, practice before attempting too much ;)

[slowlux]

accelarating down a steep decent ??? maybe roothy made everyone drink lots and lots of beer before they wrote all their articles!

[wazhere]

At least you won't lock up, until you get to the bottom and have to slam the brakes on before you go over the edge :-\

i normally won't go down a hill that i cant get up. cause if its the only way out an it starts to rain your in deep do-do. :o

If you are lucky enough to own a Nissan Patrol, or a Landrover, they are blessed with a transmission handbrake and all you have to do is click it a few cogs and it will creep down as slow as any diesel without any problems, with all of the wheels remaining at the same rolling speed.

This doesn’t apply to other vehicles as the hand brake is attached to the rear wheels only.


This is sort of correct, though if you have a rear locker, or even pressure is applied to each rear wheel, it will still retard the vehicle down hill.

Brake pressure is fine on a downhill, if the tyres have enough traction, its when the braking force exceeds the given tyre traction downhills become interesting.

I tended to run my vehicles slightly firmer sprung in the front, which is a good move with auto's as well, so if the car does get away downhill, you can drive it down, as steering and control come back in muddy hills when you drive the wheels with the engine compared to them being driven over the ground. This stops it bounding off the bumpstops as you try to get it back with firmer springs.

It is best to le tthe vehicle roll over obsticles like the ones pictured, retarding momentum on the sections between with brake, so as not to try and stop the car while it comes up against a rock etc, as the weight transfer then becomes an issue.

[etho]

How about that article on loose surface descents in this months mag :o I have tried it to a certain degree on some slopes but tend to loose my nerve on the gas pedal :P The idea of accelerating down a steep incline gets the adrenalin pumpin. Especially when your about to go over the edge. Like they say, practice before attempting too much ;)


is that the one about decents in auto 4b's? i think the theory was to hold the throttle steady, and brake to maintain rpm at a set level, yet to try it in the meccano set though as it's pretty steady in low/low on steep sections with the need to accelerate sometimes to speed up a bit. really long gradual hills are a different story :o

I nearly always travel down steep decents "into my brakes", so to speak. I think the theory is that, properly applied, the application of power into brakes locks up the torque convertor. Don't know why that is significant but it apparently means that you can better control your speed by the judicious application of brakes, the tendancy for your brakes to lock up the wheels is counteracted by the application of driving power into the wheels themselves, so they keep turning. The aim is balance the two forces so you descend with all 4 wheels turning at a controlled rate, ie: a controlled rate of decent, as opposed to becoming either a toboggan or experiencing that adrenlien rush you get when your 4b becomes a rocket sled :-X

Not really sure of the theory stuff, just know I do it when going down slippery hill decents (mud, clay, loose rock or shale) and practice the technique for whenever I can for when I get into one those sticky moments :-X.

When going down grippy decents I just use the brake & LR 1st ;D

[mudlux]

Went down a realy steep hill once, the seatbelts locked up and stoped us from falling out the windscreen, it was like we were suspended in mid air hanging like an absailer.
The rear started to overtake the front as the wheels were locking on the loose surface, so I took a deap breath and blew on the loud peadal real soft to gain control followed by a soft tug on the handbrake to slow whole shebang down again.
Going back to the same hill this weekend should be a blast.

I did a hill like that....... scared the begeezus out of me hehehe seatbelts locked......ass end started sliding around.... the wife nearly shit.... the daughter freaked..... and i was sitting a few inches higher in the seat :-\ i guess it made looking over the bullbar easier :o

How did the hill go this time around mudlux, did driving into your brakes improve the decent?

[hux]

Went down a realy steep hill once, the seatbelts locked up and stoped us from falling out the windscreen, it was like we were suspended in mid air hanging like an absailer.
The rear started to overtake the front as the wheels were locking on the loose surface, so I took a deap breath and blew on the loud peadal real soft to gain control followed by a soft tug on the handbrake to slow whole shebang down again.
Going back to the same hill this weekend should be a blast.


Saw a guy who reckons he knows how to 4x fail to deal with this type of situation at LMP. Shoudl have seen the look on his face when the arse started to slide around in his cruiser. He made 2 major mistakes...1 he got out of the wheel ruts and 2nd when the butt started to step out he went for the brakes instead of the loud pedal.

Accelerating down a steep slope may scare the shit out of you but rolling it will cause more damage than soiled undies.

What I learnt is ...never go out with someone who thinks they know everything....and when someone says you sometimes need to accelerate down hills believe them.

I'm glad I was taking pics from behind a large gum tree.

BTW The steepest slope I have been down was at Levuka and I had to drop over in 3rd Low because it would have probably popped when it got traction 2/3rd of the way down.....that is a huge adrenaline rush but the palms gets pretty wet.

Hux

[Humpy]

Did you get a picture?

[hux]

Did you get a picture?


But of course.....

[Humpy]

Did you get a picture?


But of course.....

Can you show us?

[hux]

Can you show us?


Not from here. I'm in Timor and my pics are in Brisbane ;D

I may have trouble remembering between now and the end of May!!

[Hoonz]

whoa where's that hill! looks fun!

[Humpy]

whoa where's that hill! looks fun!

Mt White, Central Coast NSW

[oiler]

I went down a very steep hill a couple of weeks ago and noticed that the car went faster if I touched the brakes. This is in an 80 series diesel manual in low 1st. It was just crawling and the wheels would break traction every now and then on loose stuff so I thought I would experiment with touching the brakes. With the brakes applied it actually went faster. Only thing I can figure is the engine had something to work against and started pushing.

ahhhhhhhh just love the hills where your wheels slip on the loose stuff..... can't use your brakes cuz yer fourby spins around sideways....... just like the trip next saturday ;D nahhhhhhhh not that bad guys...... honest!!!

[taziiy]

sounds fun :) :D

You can try an scare me Tony, but if you do do I'll buy you a carton. Damn I hope I can bring my truck, bring it on man ;D


If you want frights, come for a run with me, Lachie and my friend Ben. I guarantee you will pucker-up.


P.S., I don't think I'll be bringin the missus for that trip though ;D

hehe mine won't go ANYWHERE now ::) The one we are doin on saturday scared her away from 4WDing it seems...... but it's not that technical a drive...... just very steep and loose in places and badly washed out in others. A few minor water crossings at the bottom, so i hope it doesn't rain between now and then hehe

I hope it does rain, we can test out ya snorkel ;D

if it gets THAT deep....... i'll turn around and drive back up it!! :-X

Won't let ya ;D

[taziiy]

sounds like i better put that rubber glove on the dizzy
;D

Is the fifth cylinder hidden ;D ;D ;D ;D :D

[taziiy]

Yeah its that little thing on mine is on the skirt

[Jys5428]

Sorry for dredging up an old thread, but someone mentioned to me the other day a method for getting Auto's down REALLY steep hills, The guy with the info will remain nameless, however he is a well respected AT Specialist.
I haven't tried this mind you.....

Drive over the crest of the hill, stop and put it in reverse!
The converter allow enough slip that it will roll downhill, if you start going to fast you touch the accelerator not the brake...

It kind of makes sense. If your at the lights of a really steep hill in D and take your foot off the brake you roll backwards, so why not the reverse...

[GQANDGU]

Yet another addition to the downhill descent thread. Two actions have worked for me (in an auto Patrol). The handbrake on a notch or two works OK (& is less challenging on the nerves). However, if you can master the two feet system, it is probably better, as it engages the torque converter and you can instantly apply acceleration if you need to steer. Find out what revs your vehicle engages AND HOLDS the torque converter on a flat road (usually around 1500-1750). Then hold that rev on next down hill while gradually applying the brakes with left foot. Start on an easy hill and then get more aggressive as you gain confidence. Probably not real good for brake life, but is effectively how the smart (expensive)control electonic downhill systems work - and much cheaper than panel damage if your truck runs away from you.. (The Mrs however does not need to know you are acelerating down hill).

one thing i have always wondered, on prolonged downhill runs and holding your torque converter engaged with your foot on the brake, would it not heat up your transmision oil?

[Humpy]

You wouldn't want to try reverse gear down a really steep hill, If you start to ass over, the only way to get the back wheels back on the ground is to accelerate, forwards.

[Jys5428]

prolonged downhill runs and holding your torque converter engaged with your foot on the brake, would it not heat up your transmision oil?
Sure does, it pays to have an auto trans oil temp guage fitted. I'm looking at this next month as a pre-inst to a manual lockup overide switch and re-valve on the auto at the next service later this year.

[GQANDGU]

one thing i have always wondered, on prolonged downhill runs and holding your torque converter engaged with your foot on the brake, would it not heat up your transmision oil?


Sure it will, but hopefully you won't do it for too long each time, and it will get a chance to cool down. Many vehicles have some warning light/buzzer if getting too hot, but a temp. guage would be good insurance.

I've done long decents in the Vic High Country - no funny smells (other than hot brakes!), and I have to replace the brake pads at the next service (50 000km). Don't know if 50K is normal for a brake pad change but it's a lot less than I'm used to ::) No funny smells in transmission oil which was just changed at the 40 000km service recently and no signs of troubles. Seems harder on the brakes than anything else, but technique works well.

[mickyd]

I can only comment on downhill runs in a manual. Normally put in low range 1st or 2nd and idle down the hill. Gear depends on steepness and length. I tend to try and avoid using brakes going downhill, seeing that most of my decents are done in the High country on muddy tracks.

[Snofox]

hahaha, you think thats slow mate. My hilux is pushing it at only 105km/h!!!! it's so frustrating on a long trip, takes an extra two hours to get anywhere!!!


Don't know what your problem is...

My Hilux will travel 120km/h at 2500rpm and yes it will go considerably faster, effortlessly. No BullS*.

Going downhills like the one pictured by 'Humpy' in my Auto gearbox i should be able to achieve at least 100km/h, but thats not by choice. In fact, i'm sure a shovel would be required to scoop up Hilux parts and myself at the bottom of the hill.

Seriously though:
110km/h used to be my max speed in my Hilux when it had the 2.8 deisel.

Braking while going down rock steps is fine, as long as you do it smoothly and be prepared to correct if single wheels lock up.

[nqgu]

one thing i have always wondered, on prolonged downhill runs and holding your torque converter engaged with your foot on the brake, would it not heat up your transmision oil?


YEP!
But hey it'll get over it
:-)

[Sea-Dog]

In the cruiser I go for the Low range 1st with the handbrake on... if the arse is looking to overtake the accelerator will straighten it all up again... ;)

Don't know too much about putting the auto in reverse though???? what do you do if the arse is starting to overtake you in that case... you simply can't stop and put it in 1st gear again to pull it out of the cross up!!! :-X

I don't know about you guys but I hate the sensation of having the right foot planted hard on the brake pedal and still watching the tress go slowly by as the car keeps on heading it's way down the hill! :P

[Jys5428]

Hey, i did finally pick a nice hill with a run off to try this reverse thing out on and It scared the $hit out of me.
Especially when the engine stalled and I started to roller coaster to the bottom, hehehehe... :-[

[Humpy]

So, Im guessing you wont be trying that again will you :o

[diesel60]

If you have a guide, why not reverse down? Reverse is usually that little bit lower than first gear and could make the difference.

[Humpy]

If you have a guide, why not reverse down? Reverse is usually that little bit lower than first gear and could make the difference.

Reversing backwards down hills is fine, what LilBlkDuck was talking about was going down forwards while in reverse

Tried this & works a treat with the auto. Key is to put in high range & being gentle with throttle. Wouldn't want to do it on a long decent though; auto does get pretty warm.

Cheers
Allan Mac

[Utemad]

hehe they don't gear rodeos very high........ 120kph is pushin it on the highway


Yep the gears are low but low gear is not very low at all. Don't mean to offend but if you haven't descended a hill where 1st low wasn't low enough in a Rodeo then you haven't descended a very steep hill.

I often need to brake in low first when I descend hills and that is with 29in tyres.

i've been down some pretty steep hills where low 1st is too slow.... and low 2nd is too fast...... no in between. Them teralow gears are lokking good!! ;D

[Utemad]

i've been down some pretty steep hills where low 1st is too slow.... and low 2nd is too fast...... no in between. Them teralow gears are lokking good!! ;D


I guess our definitions of a steep hill or too fast are different. As some of the hills I have been down I can guarantee low 1st is way too high.

Is yours the 2.8 t/d? Mine is the 2.6p. I wouldn't think there would be too much in it though.

from what i'm told, our ratios are the same..... 4.55:1 a deisel does have higher compression though....... i guess i might get a little better engine braking than a petrol.

[Utemad]

from what i'm told, our ratios are the same..... 4.55:1 a deisel does have higher compression though....... i guess i might get a little better engine braking than a petrol.


Yeah I was talking about the engine compression.

It's all good though. I was just having a stir. We drive Rodeos so we have thick skin 8)

[Nig]

Having had both petrol and diesel rodeos, I can vouch for the better engine braking of the diesel - hills that the old petrol used to run away on reving its head off in low first the diesel will idle down in the same gear

good to see the Rodeo boys gathering here 8)

[Jys5428]

So, Im guessing you wont be trying that again will you :o

I will now this time in High Range!

Tried this & works a treat with the auto. Key is to put in high range & being gentle with throttle. Wouldn't want to do it on a long decent though; auto does get pretty warm.

[Utemad]

good to see the Rodeo boys gathering here 8)


I think the 4wd Monthly site has the most Rodeo drivers of all the forums I visit. Not many but more than the others at least ;D

good to see the Rodeo boys gathering here 8)


I think the 4wd Monthly site has the most Rodeo drivers of all the forums I visit. Not many but more than the others at least ;D


thats because we are terribly nice people ;D ;D ;D

[pricetec]

Be very careful you don't stall the engine. i had a hd holden with the powerglide transmission and I used to stop it by throwing it in reverse. ( there wern't any hoones in those days or radars ) anyway the reverse would work if you didn't stall the engine. you would also need to watch the temperature of the torque converter if the descent was long.



Graham

[Nemesis]

The pucker factor of downhill decents in an IFS is hard to beat.
Now, i'm talking really steep technical ones, with diagonal or one sided deep ruts. That front wheel just takes the car in with it and the rest try's to roll over for a better view.
It was only the other weekend I had it rocking on the front right tyre, the missus who was out of the car watching screamed even.............

[Utemad]

The pucker factor of downhill decents in an IFS is hard to beat.

I know what you mean. There is nothing like dropping a front wheel in a rut and popping a rear wheel into the air while on a steep decent. I have done it a couple of times myself when there is just no other line to take. A sudden jerk and slide downhill until you regain traction is always good for the ticker. Last time I did it we dropped so far my head hit the roof.

put a locker in the front and all will be well! ;D

















hopefully!! :o

[Nig]

The pucker factor of downhill decents in an IFS is hard to beat.

I know what you mean. There is nothing like dropping a front wheel in a rut and popping a rear wheel into the air while on a steep decent. I have done it a couple of times myself when there is just no other line to take. A sudden jerk and slide downhill until you regain traction is always good for the ticker. Last time I did it we dropped so far my head hit the roof.


You mean like this ??
http://www.4x4world.com.au/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=254

[Nemesis]

Yeah pretty much, I didn't get quite that far though. I just sat there puckered up ready to kiss my truck good bye till it stopped rocking. Then got someone to put a big rock in front of the front tyre to level it out.

[taziiy]

Ouch that would of hurt :(

[Utemad]

Well I haven't rolled yet. We just slid along the chassis rail and bash plates until we got wheels on the ground again as I thought that would be better than stopping. We made it ok but don't think I'll take that hill or line again til it changes over time etc.

[taziiy]

Well I haven't rolled yet. We just slid along the chassis rail and bash plates until we got wheels on the ground again as I thought that would be better than stopping. We made it ok but don't think I'll take that hill or line again til it changes over time etc.


So that one registered pretty high on Roe's scale then

sounds like a pucker factor 8 to 9 8)

[taziiy]

For those newbies that dont know what the scale is have a read
pucker factor (http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2508;sta rt=0)

Lilblkduck,

The opposite gear thing works very well, but must be in high range. Was taught this by a very highly respected instructor & could not believe how well it works, especially in the wet.

Was on a course in Toolangi & tracks were quite wet/slippery. Stopped halfway up a pretty steep hill, put in high range then low on the auto Using LF braking increased revs, slowly released brake so that throttle was controlling vehicle movement. Full descent was performed using throttle only, if speed gotta little to high, little more throttle. Used same technique driving down a steep hill. High range, reverse gear, using throttle no brakes. AS said earlier, would not like to use technique for more than 100-200 mtrs, tranny would start to get fairly warm.

Cheers
Allan Mac

[Jys5428]

Cheers Allan, SEE and everyone said I was mad!!!!
Seriously I was told about this (and told to keep it secret :-X) )by a well known Auto Trans Specialist. He didn't mention the high range part however. Does make sense. He also mentioned the heat and as that's the reason we got onto tthe subject in the first place. I was looking at a temp gauge for the AT and a lock-up overide unit.

[westvictoriaPATROL]

I have once gone down a wet slippery hill and just let the motor do all the work in low range 1st gear and all that happened was my 4wd flew down the the bottom of the gully and i couldnt get it out. I didnt use the brakes but it still skidded down. It was just all mud. 4 hours later of constant winching I got my 4wd back.

[taziiy]

Thats good that you got yourself out agian :D

[BushTuckerNed]

I have once gone down a wet slippery hill and just let the motor do all the work in low range 1st gear and all that happened was my 4wd flew down the the bottom of the gully and i couldnt get it out. I didnt use the brakes but it still skidded down. It was just all mud. 4 hours later of constant winching I got my 4wd back.

Dad was doing the same thing. But after we spent hours winching up the hill >:(. Going back down, all locked up sliding sideways. I told him to drive into the bank. It was the only way of stoping us from going into the trees on the other side

[Snofox]

As most of you here would already know, my Hilux is an auto.

I'm considering a manual lockup overide for the torque converter, but also a set of Low Range Gears for the transfer case.

Its like adding another two gears to your standard gearbox when running in low range. --- Problem solved ---

I've gotta save some more pennies for it though.