STALL START

[bad_religion_au]

to those out there that know how to do this, please remember it, to those that don't know what it is, please learn and practice it on easy hills till it becomes second nature.

the proceedure i follow is... vehicle stalls on hill going forward. i pump the brakes up, handbrake, then put it in Low range and REVERSE. then foot off the clutch, foot off the brake, handbrake off slowly. it should be holding due to engine compression. keep your feet away from all the pedals, and start it in reverse. slowly back down the hill

try it till it's natural to do. today i saw a near miss due to someone not knowing this technique. scared the pants off me :o

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

It's much worse when you are in the passenger seat, and half way down the hill in reverse they think it's going too fast so put their foot on the clutch then brake!!!! :o :o :o

REMEMBER that once you are on your way back down the hill, the left foot stays WELL AWAY from the clutch, and if you need to brake, be VERY GENTLE, 'cos your front brakes will lock really, really, easily. And once they do, they'll work damn hard to pass the back wheels!! :o :o :o :-X

[bad_religion_au]

It's much worse when you are in the passenger seat, and half way down the hill in reverse they think it's going too fast so put their foot on the clutch then brake!!!! :o :o :o

REMEMBER that once you are on your way back down the hill, the left foot stays WELL AWAY from the clutch, and if you need to brake, be VERY GENTLE, 'cos your front brakes will lock really, really, easily. And once they do, they'll work damn hard to pass the back wheels!! :o :o :o :-X


ohhh yes... i should have said "once reverse is selected stay away from the clutch untill your on flat ground"

good tip about the brakes too, i take it for granted because i'm used to finding the point before lock up through experience

[Hellbelly]

I'll be trying this one Adam. I'd heard of it before but never really wanted to try it. It sounds wrong (I know its right but it sounds wrong), but after today I was impressed. I must say, I thought it was as funny as hell seeing him flyin down there but it could easily have ended very very badly, and not just for him.

All's well that ends well tho ;D. That was a very very valuable lesson today.

Cheers.........HB

[bad_religion_au]

I'll be trying this one Adam. I'd heard of it before but never really wanted to try it. It sounds wrong (I know its right but it sounds wrong), but after today I was impressed. I must say, I thought it was as funny as hell seeing him flyin down there but it could easily have ended very very badly, and not just for him.

All's well that ends well tho ;D. That was a very very valuable lesson today.

Cheers.........HB


worth practicing until it's reflex... or at least less unnatural. and i couldn't resist giving a demo straight after he went down that hill. ;D

and for those worried about your starter, i do this coming out of my driveway alot, and my starter still works ;D

[Gumby]

Hmmm, good point Adam,it is a must learn subject.

Has anyone been to Sellicks Hill before it was all closed off,

Try going up those hills then get half way and losing traction or stalling,

If you do not know this process, hmmm would make a great
action rollover video.

Sometimes i will stall the engine if i cant make it up a hill so as not to use the clutch.

Serious though, it is a good safety thing to practice

[Patrolman Pat]

I've done this technique many times in my old Navara and it should be second nature. Now I drive an auto what is the correct procedure to follow.

[Gumby]

Auto's have allways been said to be a bit of a problem offroad, more so with hills. But to answer your question Pat, i wouldn't know, i've never had an auto 4x4 to worry about it, and most likely never will, it is a good point though mate.

[Patrolman Pat]

I've just read the technique in Vic Widman's book. Basically if it stalls, hold it with the brakes, put into neutral and start , then quickly into reverse. If it starts to slide backwards, put it into neutral, start and select reverse whilst trying to steer it down hill. Whilst not panicking :o
I've never had mine stall yet and when I have run out of traction on a hill i've been able to hold it on the brakes, select reverse and just drive down. Thae incident yesterday sounded scary and good on Adam for raising this topic

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

It's pretty hard to stall an auto unless summat's wrong with the engine!! Normal procedure for Steep Hills is lift off accell and depress brake pedal, then basically the same process as for manuals except no need to turn-off, clutch, or re-start.

In a manual, the rule of thumb is 'foot brake is the first thing on, the last thing off, and keep one hand on the steering wheel at all times!' Would you believe, exactly the same applies to auto's!!??

You are more likely to need to 'feather' the brakes as you back down the hill in an auto, due to their tendancy to run away! Be very gentle, and unless you've got a transfer case mounted handbrake, resist the temptation to use a notch or three!! Handbrakes that act on the rear wheels can cause the front to do it's slide sideways attempt to pass rear thingy, and that is a real worry!!

Most importantly for everyone, is learn to back using the mirrors, and keep an eye on your 'going uphill' tracks. If they are in the correct relationship to the front of the vehicle as you back down, you are going OK, if they wander out either side, WATCH OUT!!

Like br said up front, practice on easy hills until it's reflex. Once you've got it sorted, watchers should be almost unaware that you are using the technique, it should be that seamlessly straight forward. Have fun practicing, and remember that NOTHING VARY's, even if you are sliding down the hill backwards at ever increasing speed!! You just have to do everything in the same order and manner, and then accellerate to get the tyres rolling at the same speed that the ground is sliding by underneath!! Not until then will you re-gain control!!

[Patrolman Pat]

Good points Peter. I always reverse using the side mirrors because my car is nearly always full for work so the and the rear view mirror is useless. I've read of autos stalling but have never seen it myself.

[Silver]

Big thing to remember with autos on a steep hill is don't put them in Park while doing this. If the weight shifts back you willl have trouble getting out of park. With an auto the hand brake should allways be set before selecting park...

[bad_religion_au]

oh, and remember that while it might be comfortable on the street, a reclined seating position is an unwanted complication in this situation, because most the seatbelts i've ever had in a 4by lock you in place at that angle with the inertia tensioner thingy... try reaching your key then ;D

[Humpy]

Is this a muddy track technique ???

Ive never been in a situation where letting out the clutch in reverse wasnt perfectly adequate

[Mick.]

If you have a carbi fed auto like myself they can stall very easily it you loose traction and can go know further. As soon as you take your foot off the trottle they can stall. If this happens I just put in neutral and start it with foot on brake than slowly roll done the hill still in neutral ready to go into drive or reverse depending what i'm doing. In an auto rolling down a hill either forward or backwards in gear can actually make you slide out so if i'm going down something really steep I usually just stick it in neutral and stick it in gear when needed. That way I have more contol and I don't have the engine trying to push me up or down the hill. When I get reduction gears I'm hoping I will be able to use the engine to slow me down rather than push me along. ;D I hope that makes sence.

Cheers Mick.

[Patrolman Pat]

That technique sounds a bit dodgy to me Mick. Rolling down hill in neutral means the wheels aren't driving and will surely lock up very easily. I drive through the brakes, set the revs around 1500 -1800 rpm and use the brakes to slow me down, works for me.

[Mick.]

That technique sounds a bit dodgy to me Mick. Rolling down hill in neutral means the wheels aren't driving and will surely lock up very easily. I drive through the brakes, set the revs around 1500 -1800 rpm and use the brakes to slow me down, works for me.
I would wear my brakes out in a day if I did that. If your going down a real steep hill you don't want the wheels to be driving anyway. It takes a bit to lock 37s up at 10 psi too. :D

Cheers Mick.

[Gumby]

It is very easy to stall on a steep hill as Mick said, i dont know about other 4by's but the toyota carb floods when the angles become rather full on. i heard the Holly carbs are even worse for this.

Running LPG and diesal you shouldnt have any troubles though.

[bad_religion_au]

Is this a muddy track technique ???

Ive never been in a situation where letting out the clutch in reverse wasnt perfectly adequate


i think it's the "safest" technique... i've done plenty of stall stops where i've started it out of gear with the footbrake on, then driven it in reverse through the brakes. (i know i know the proper technique and don't always use it...) but it's a bit of a dance, and the stall start technique simplifies it, and gives you a logical framework to work through, so your mind doesn't go into panic and you forget to release the clutch.... like the guy did that prompted this thread did.

[bad_religion_au]

It is very easy to stall on a steep hill as Mick said, i dont know about other 4by's but the toyota carb floods when the angles become rather full on. i heard the Holly carbs are even worse for this.

Running LPG and diesal you shouldnt have any troubles though.


mick, i disagree. i was taught in any form of driving, that unless you have the engine and wheels connected (i.e. IN GEAR) so you can control wheelspeed with the throttle, your not in control of the car. if your in low 1st you might speed up to 15 k's an hour... what's the max speed you could reach in neutral... a heck of a lot faster than that.

and gumby, try telling mudslinger that he won't have angle problems in a diesel ;D. last trip out he got a wheel up on that concrete pipe in the creek and his motor kept stalling out with air in the fuel lines :P

[Mick.]

It is very easy to stall on a steep hill as Mick said, i dont know about other 4by's but the toyota carb floods when the angles become rather full on. i heard the Holly carbs are even worse for this.

Running LPG and diesal you shouldnt have any troubles though.


mick, i disagree. i was taught in any form of driving, that unless you have the engine and wheels connected (i.e. IN GEAR) so you can control wheelspeed with the throttle, your not in control of the car. if your in low 1st you might speed up to 15 k's an hour... what's the max speed you could reach in neutral... a heck of a lot faster than that.

and gumby, try telling mudslinger that he won't have angle problems in a diesel ;D. last trip out he got a wheel up on that concrete pipe in the creek and his motor kept stalling out with air in the fuel lines :P
I've never had a problem this way. You have a lot more control if you can keep the 4wd from running away. If I keep mine in drive or reverse it can run away. First gear low in my patrol can get up to 30 or 40 km/h. :o If on a steep angle you have to keep revs up also to keep in running being cari fed. You can keep the revs up in gear without loosing control on a steep hill. I'm getting reduction gears fitted on Wednesday so that should help. :D

Cheers Mick.

[bad_religion_au]

It is very easy to stall on a steep hill as Mick said, i dont know about other 4by's but the toyota carb floods when the angles become rather full on. i heard the Holly carbs are even worse for this.

Running LPG and diesal you shouldnt have any troubles though.


mick, i disagree. i was taught in any form of driving, that unless you have the engine and wheels connected (i.e. IN GEAR) so you can control wheelspeed with the throttle, your not in control of the car. if your in low 1st you might speed up to 15 k's an hour... what's the max speed you could reach in neutral... a heck of a lot faster than that.

and gumby, try telling mudslinger that he won't have angle problems in a diesel ;D. last trip out he got a wheel up on that concrete pipe in the creek and his motor kept stalling out with air in the fuel lines :P
I've never had a problem this way. You have a lot more control if you can keep the 4wd from running away. If I keep mine in drive or reverse it can run away. First gear low in my patrol can get up to 30 or 40 km/h. :o If on a steep angle you have to keep revs up also to keep in running being cari fed. You can keep the revs up in gear without loosing control on a steep hill. I'm getting reduction gears fitted on Wednesday so that should help. :D

Cheers Mick.


:o i heard auto patrols "run away" a bit on hills but i didn't know it was that much... i don't think i could hit 40 k's in low 3rd :) hmm, those reduction gears make heaps of sense now. i still don't like the idea of not being in gear, but in your circumstances, i understand completely. good luck with the gearing :D

[Patrolman Pat]

My auto patrol (3.0GU) definately want to "run away" down hill and reduction gears are on the shopping list once it's out of warranty. I'm not sure what speed it would reach in L1 but I'm sure it would be too fast for a lot of situations. It's the biggest fault with autos IMO.

[Humpy]

Is this a muddy track technique ???

Ive never been in a situation where letting out the clutch in reverse wasnt perfectly adequate


i think it's the "safest" technique... i've done plenty of stall stops where i've started it out of gear with the footbrake on, then driven it in reverse through the brakes. (i know i know the proper technique and don't always use it...) but it's a bit of a dance, and the stall start technique simplifies it, and gives you a logical framework to work through, so your mind doesn't go into panic and you forget to release the clutch.... like the guy did that prompted this thread did.

The stall start seems more complicated to me than a normal start in reverse.

It seems to me that if your driving up a hill and you stall, either way you have to take the car out of a forward gear and put it in reverse. If your brakes are holding and the gears will hold if in gear engine stopped, why not just start the engine with the brakes on and in neutral.

Chances are you arent going to need to throttle down the hill so its pretty standard driving behaviour to have left foot clutch and right foot brake and take off as normal.

Why bother practicing to turn the key, and ease the brake simultaneously. which as you said requires practice

I imagine that on a slippery hill that you cant hold on and keep sliding down, maybe theres a reason for it ??? thats why i asked about mud

[Gumby]

Adan, slinger had that happen once before when he was with me, but in the big ruts, i think it was due to very low fuel in the tank, aslong as the fuel pick up is under fuel it should be right, but you do raise another good point on that, do diesals have anything to stop this, with petrol the system doesnt need to be under constant pressure...

[bad_religion_au]

The stall start seems more complicated to me than a normal start in reverse.

It seems to me that if your driving up a hill and you stall, either way you have to take the car out of a forward gear and put it in reverse. If your brakes are holding and the gears will hold if in gear engine stopped, why not just start the engine with the brakes on and in neutral.

Chances are you arent going to need to throttle down the hill so its pretty standard driving behaviour to have left foot clutch and right foot brake and take off as normal.

Why bother practicing to turn the key, and ease the brake simultaneously. which as you said requires practice

I imagine that on a slippery hill that you cant hold on and keep sliding down, maybe theres a reason for it ??? thats why i asked about mud


the point is, that you don't ease the brake off during a stall start proceedure... you have it sitting in gear NO brakes, then turn the key. it also eliminates any jerkyness of the clutch engage, making it less likely to break traction due to the smoother transition. how complicated is it to hold it on the hill with the brakes, put it from forward gear to reverse, let off the brakes then some time later (heck sit there for 5 minutes on engine compression) turn the key.

not everyone is smooth with finding the clutch take up point, and road driving instinct is to clutch and brake to slow down, so getting the person to actually release the clutch mentally might be a challenge... and what if on the angle you need a little throttle to start the bugger?

it's worth giving it a try Humpy, after all if it's no better than your (and my regular) way of doing it, no harm done, but at least it's another technique in the mental tool box

[bad_religion_au]

Adan, slinger had that happen once before when he was with me, but in the big ruts, i think it was due to very low fuel in the tank, aslong as the fuel pick up is under fuel it should be right, but you do raise another good point on that, do diesals have anything to stop this, with petrol the system doesnt need to be under constant pressure...


more diesel in the tank? maybe a surge tank like they use on racecars, have the regular pump fill a surge tank which then pumps to the injectors? dunno... just some ideas. it never happened with my old diesel tho,

so i'm wondering if maybe he's got a small split or crack in one of the fuel lines (or some other point where air can enter at specific angles/ loads). used to happen on my old diesel when turning sharp corners, because the small amount of movement of the motor caused the cracked fuel line to flex.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Hey Humpy, the other issue that makes the Stall Start such a valuable tool is that all the tyres are being slowed or driven equally by the engine, rather than having a foot on the brakes putting 75% of the braking effort to the front!!

The really steep type hills that can be found around the place are prime situations for anyone trying to reverse using the brakes to end up all crossed up and rolling, 'cos the front wheels lock up, slide out, front passes rear, roll ensues!! The Stall Start technique may give a surge as the engine starts, but it will be driving all wheels evenly so that if you learn to let it walk down the hill backwards on engine braking alone (or maybe a notch or two of trans mounted handbrake) it is a much safer proceedure!!

By the way, Stall Stops work just as well going forwards down a hill where you either have to stop to clear track or summat similar, or even to change down when the hill is too steep to attempt a normal change!! And yes, there are hills that steep!! You can use the trans mounted handbrake to slow everything down, and with practice achieve a down shift without stopping, but rear wheel mounted handbrakes don't work so well and the stall stop, key start is much safer if it is that steep!! When you stop by braking and stalling out, the vehicle is already stabilised and held in position, with no moment at all when it is unsecured!!

The important thing with all these proceedures that needs practice is the 'KEEP AWAY FROM THE CLUTCH!' I encourage people driving up or down hills to tuck their clutch foot back and under the seat, so that it is in an uncomfortable position and they remember not to use it!! If they need to stop for any reason, it is safest to stall out!! Then it is safest to key start, again resulting in no period where the vehicle is unsedured!!

[FourXfouR]

Someone once told me ( correct me if this is wrong ) if you have an Auto on a steep hill, you may select drive and let the fourby roll backwards down the hill. Same works for the other way, select Reverse and let the car roll forward down the hill. Has anyone tried this? It will not cause any harm to the transmission providing that it is not done for extended periods of time.

Go the manual, thats all I say

[Mick.]

Go the manual, thats all I say
You obviously havn't driven an auto in the bush than. :D I've had both and would never buy another manual for 4wding (sand & rockcrawling etc). If touring or towing than I would probably buy a manual. :-\ Once my reduction gears are fitted there wouldn't be one thing a manual would have over my auto.

Cheers Mick.

[bad_religion_au]

Go the manual, thats all I say
You obviously havn't driven an auto in the bush than. :D I've had both and would never buy another manual for 4wding (sand & rockcrawling etc). If touring or towing than I would probably buy a manual. :-\ Once my reduction gears are fitted there wouldn't be one thing a manual would have over my auto.

Cheers Mick.


ability to roll start ;D

just ribbin ya

[Mick.]

Go the manual, thats all I say
You obviously havn't driven an auto in the bush than. :D I've had both and would never buy another manual for 4wding (sand & rockcrawling etc). If touring or towing than I would probably buy a manual. :-\ Once my reduction gears are fitted there wouldn't be one thing a manual would have over my auto.

Cheers Mick.


ability to roll start ;D

just ribbin ya
I forgot about that one. ;D

[FourXfouR]

each to their own,

I just find Auto's boring, feel less in control.

We had a 100 series Auto and the box was a dog, never knew what gear it wanted to be in. I like knowing that if I select 2nd its gonna stay in second. Each have their good and bad points, I wont knock someone for buying an auto, just not my thing

[Patrolman Pat]

I like knowing that if I select 2nd its gonna stay in second. Each have their good and bad points, I wont knock someone for buying an auto, just not my thing

In the Patrol you can lock it into second gear, which I do a lot and it works well. As much as i like my auto i have to admit I'd prefer a manual. Don't know why as the auto is great most of the time but driving a manual feels so much better.

[MudSlinger]

Adan, slinger had that happen once before when he was with me, but in the big ruts, i think it was due to very low fuel in the tank, aslong as the fuel pick up is under fuel it should be right, but you do raise another good point on that, do diesals have anything to stop this, with petrol the system doesnt need to be under constant pressure...

I should put more fuel in when i go offroad thats all.
But it might be worth testing for leaks.
By the way im making my first batch of biodiesel soon ;D ;D

[bad_religion_au]

Adan, slinger had that happen once before when he was with me, but in the big ruts, i think it was due to very low fuel in the tank, aslong as the fuel pick up is under fuel it should be right, but you do raise another good point on that, do diesals have anything to stop this, with petrol the system doesnt need to be under constant pressure...

I should put more fuel in when i go offroad thats all.
But it might be worth testing for leaks.
By the way im making my first batch of biodiesel soon ;D ;D


i still recon the race car style surge tank's an idea ;D

[Humpy]

the point is, that you don't ease the brake off during a stall start proceedure... you have it sitting in gear NO brakes, then turn the key. it also eliminates any jerkyness of the clutch engage, making it less likely to break traction due to the smoother transition. how complicated is it to hold it on the hill with the brakes, put it from forward gear to reverse, let off the brakes then some time later (heck sit there for 5 minutes on engine compression) turn the key.

not everyone is smooth with finding the clutch take up point, and road driving instinct is to clutch and brake to slow down, so getting the person to actually release the clutch mentally might be a challenge... and what if on the angle you need a little throttle to start the bugger?

it's worth giving it a try Humpy, after all if it's no better than your (and my regular) way of doing it, no harm done, but at least it's another technique in the mental tool box


I was going to mention needing throttle to start the engine as a reason to not stall start, heel and toeing is easy to do when your not moving, and starting with throttle on a steep hill doesn't sound like a great idea to me

Point taken though, I will have to try it again and see if it can work for me :D

[Humpy]

Hey Humpy, the other issue that makes the Stall Start such a valuable tool is that all the tyres are being slowed or driven equally by the engine, rather than having a foot on the brakes putting 75% of the braking effort to the front!!

The really steep type hills that can be found around the place are prime situations for anyone trying to reverse using the brakes to end up all crossed up and rolling, 'cos the front wheels lock up, slide out, front passes rear, roll ensues!! The Stall Start technique may give a surge as the engine starts, but it will be driving all wheels evenly so that if you learn to let it walk down the hill backwards on engine braking alone (or maybe a notch or two of trans mounted handbrake) it is a much safer proceedure!!

By the way, Stall Stops work just as well going forwards down a hill where you either have to stop to clear track or summat similar, or even to change down when the hill is too steep to attempt a normal change!! And yes, there are hills that steep!! You can use the trans mounted handbrake to slow everything down, and with practice achieve a down shift without stopping, but rear wheel mounted handbrakes don't work so well and the stall stop, key start is much safer if it is that steep!! When you stop by braking and stalling out, the vehicle is already stabilised and held in position, with no moment at all when it is unsecured!!

The important thing with all these proceedures that needs practice is the 'KEEP AWAY FROM THE CLUTCH!' I encourage people driving up or down hills to tuck their clutch foot back and under the seat, so that it is in an uncomfortable position and they remember not to use it!! If they need to stop for any reason, it is safest to stall out!! Then it is safest to key start, again resulting in no period where the vehicle is unsedured!!


Im not suggesting that anyone reverse down a hill on brakes alone, but when the brakes are jammed on brake bias means nothing. You cant be more stopped than stopped ;)

BTW if you have a rear locker engaged, there is no difference in braking (as far as the wheels can tell) between a rear handbrake and a transmission one.

As for the don’t touch the clutch theory, when attempting ranger bobs, the first 5 or 6 times as it stopped moving, I put my foot on the clutch and backed out. The last time I didn’t, the engine stalled and I ended up here. :D
http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/albums/album516/Flop3.jpg
I wasn’t on the brake and I don’t think I was on a different line either, but check that with Crusher

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

The issue with the brakes is that when you are in 4WD, pulling on a transfer case mounted handbrake is less likely to stop ANY wheel, 'cos its got to slow down ALL the wheels via the driveshafts that are being driven, rather than at the wheels! Doing the same thing with a rear wheel handbrake, it puts all its effort into attempts to stop the rear wheels, and then the rest is slowed thru the driveshafts as an after thought. There is a lot more pressure on the rear wheels to stop than there is on the front wheels, and the driveshafts may still be trying to drive the whole lot! There is also a degree of mechanical 'slop' between the slowing and eventually stopping rear wheels, and the still driving front wheels! It gets very messy very quickly!!

The other thing to remember is that brake bias still makes for a really dangerous situation, 'cos the back wheels are taking more of the load of the vehicle, as well as leading the slide downhill, while the front wheels are lightly loaded and WILL lock up readily, removing all semblence of control, even when the engine is still trying to drive them!! If locking them up stalls the engine, the front brakes still get 75% of the brake bias, and the rear wheels may well just keep turning slowly as you force things backwards down the hill, BUT the front wheels are more likely stopped by the ever increasing pressure that the driver is pushing onto them, as the car gathers speed backwards down the hill!!! SEEN IT HAPPEN!! Front wheels stopped, back wheels just turning, front passes back, gets all crossed up, rolls to bottom of hill!!

That little bit of difference between braking all wheels evenly thru the transfer mounted handbrake and the rear wheel mounted handbrake is often the bit that keeps you the right side up!! And even if you have the rear locker engaged, it only takes 1 front wheel to lock to give the vehicle the excuse to slip sideways and its all downhill from there!!

hmmm!! do like a mate did !!! rode it all the way down i thought we were dead!!

i actually had to change my jocks to be safe!!!!

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

I've done the ride it all the way down bit!! And even stalled the thing out on the way down and just kept going!! With it all locked up too!! So brakes don't always stop you at all!!

That time, a vehicle following got high centred on a deep rut just one hump down. I started to back down, low and slow, and the thing started to run away! A notch or three of handbrake (trans mounted) still getting faster; more notches, and still faster! Handbrake full on, wheels stopped, engine stalled and the speed kept increasing!! This is loose flinty gravelly stuff, a real 'scree slope!'

With the wheels locked, hit the clutch, started it again and got it in low 1st, dumped clutch and handbrake and gave it a bootfull of wellie (the BIG one!!) The trenches were about 6 foot long, and about 6-8 inches at their deepest!! Thank God for twin Detroit Lockers, AND Cooper STT's, 'cause they caught, and slowed us up, before bring us to a stop and then slowly dragging us back up the hill!!! It is one of the steepest hills I know, and it's other name is 'the Widowmaker!' and that day I really worked out why!!

I told the guy behind he had to get off the hump in the centre without a snatch recovery, and it was about then that he discovered the reason for the high centering was that he had a flat front wheel!! It was fun changing that, and we had to open the car windows and use the 'B' and 'C' pillars to climb up to the front of the car with the spare!! Had to tie it onto the car too, 'cos if we lost it, I was gonna torch the car and leave it there (it was only a 4 runner!) We got it done, and I had to use all the winch extension staps we had to winch him up!!

I try to avoid the 'ride it down slide' now! And the Stall Stop, Key Start STILL works for me as the safest way to recover from the steepest of hills!!

I've done the ride it all the way down bit!! And even stalled the thing out on the way down and just kept going!! With it all locked up too!! So brakes don't always stop you at all!!

That time, a vehicle following got high centred on a deep rut just one hump down. I started to back down, low and slow, and the thing started to run away! A notch or three of handbrake (trans mounted) still getting faster; more notches, and still faster! Handbrake full on, wheels stopped, engine stalled and the speed kept increasing!! This is loose flinty gravelly stuff, a real 'scree slope!'

With the wheels locked, hit the clutch, started it again and got it in low 1st, dumped clutch and handbrake and gave it a bootfull of wellie (the BIG one!!) The trenches were about 6 foot long, and about 6-8 inches at their deepest!! Thank God for twin Detroit Lockers, AND Cooper STT's, 'cause they caught, and slowed us up, before bring us to a stop and then slowly dragging us back up the hill!!! It is one of the steepest hills I know, and it's other name is 'the Widowmaker!' and that day I really worked out why!!

I told the guy behind he had to get off the hump in the centre without a snatch recovery, and it was about then that he discovered the reason for the high centering was that he had a flat front wheel!! It was fun changing that, and we had to open the car windows and use the 'B' and 'C' pillars to climb up to the front of the car with the spare!! Had to tie it onto the car too, 'cos if we lost it, I was gonna torch the car and leave it there (it was only a 4 runner!) We got it done, and I had to use all the winch extension staps we had to winch him up!!

I try to avoid the 'ride it down slide' now! And the Stall Stop, Key Start STILL works for me as the safest way to recover from the steepest of hills!!


if it was only a tojo why didnt you just torch it!!!
hehehe

[Humpy]

The issue with the brakes is that when you are in 4WD, pulling on a transfer case mounted handbrake is less likely to stop ANY wheel, 'cos its got to slow down ALL the wheels via the driveshafts that are being driven, rather than at the wheels! Doing the same thing with a rear wheel handbrake, it puts all its effort into attempts to stop the rear wheels, and then the rest is slowed thru the driveshafts as an after thought. There is a lot more pressure on the rear wheels to stop than there is on the front wheels, and the driveshafts may still be trying to drive the whole lot! There is also a degree of mechanical 'slop' between the slowing and eventually stopping rear wheels, and the still driving front wheels! It gets very messy very quickly!!

After thought ::) its mechanically locked together, I agree there’s slop, but it would only be twice the slop involved in a transmission brake and I haven’t heard of that being a problem before.

The other thing to remember is that brake bias still makes for a really dangerous situation, 'cos the back wheels are taking more of the load of the vehicle, as well as leading the slide downhill, while the front wheels are lightly loaded and WILL lock up readily, removing all semblence of control, even when the engine is still trying to drive them!! If locking them up stalls the engine, the front brakes still get 75% of the brake bias, and the rear wheels may well just keep turning slowly as you force things backwards down the hill, BUT the front wheels are more likely stopped by the ever increasing pressure that the driver is pushing onto them, as the car gathers speed backwards down the hill!!! SEEN IT HAPPEN!! Front wheels stopped, back wheels just turning, front passes back, gets all crossed up, rolls to bottom of hill!!
Totally agree, assuming there’s an open centre diff. When locked front to back, it gets more complicated, cause the rear can only turn long enough to take up the slop to the front. What is more likely to happen is one front and one rear locks up, allowing the car to pivot and end up on its side.

Locked both ends no wheel can turn without the others so one wheel cant lock unless they all do. If you do get a full lockup the car is still likely to turn sideways cause the left to right braking/traction forces are unlikely to be perfectly balanced and the front has relatively little traction (or direction) to counteract the turning force generated

Braking using the gears means that there will always be some turning (or else the engine stalls) and a lockup and slide situation is less likely.

That little bit of difference between braking all wheels evenly thru the transfer mounted handbrake and the rear wheel mounted handbrake is often the bit that keeps you the right side up!! And even if you have the rear locker engaged, it only takes 1 front wheel to lock to give the vehicle the excuse to slip sideways and its all downhill from there!!

Locking a wheel is quite possible with a transmission brake too, in fact an open diff will often have one wheel turning backwards when its opposite has more traction.

Lets put this slop in perspective, even on a loose old car like mine I doubt the slop through the transmission would allow more than 200-300mm difference on the ground between front and rear. A transmission brake would be half that. Newer tighter cars would be less

In marginal conditions, I do concede that the extra slop may be the difference between slipping sideways or not, im just saying that a rear handbrake can be used in the same way as a transmission brake 99% of the time, when the rear is locked

[bad_religion_au]

I was going to mention needing throttle to start the engine as a reason to not stall start, heel and toeing is easy to do when your not moving, and starting with throttle on a steep hill doesn't sound like a great idea to me

Point taken though, I will have to try it again and see if it can work for me :D


the thing with the stall start proceedure, what if it doesn't start? it'll still drive down on the starter (and under engine compression) till it does run.

[Mick.]

It is very easy to stall on a steep hill as Mick said, i dont know about other 4by's but the toyota carb floods when the angles become rather full on. i heard the Holly carbs are even worse for this.

Running LPG and diesal you shouldnt have any troubles though.


mick, i disagree. i was taught in any form of driving, that unless you have the engine and wheels connected (i.e. IN GEAR) so you can control wheelspeed with the throttle, your not in control of the car. if your in low 1st you might speed up to 15 k's an hour... what's the max speed you could reach in neutral... a heck of a lot faster than that.

and gumby, try telling mudslinger that he won't have angle problems in a diesel ;D. last trip out he got a wheel up on that concrete pipe in the creek and his motor kept stalling out with air in the fuel lines :P
I've never had a problem this way. You have a lot more control if you can keep the 4wd from running away. If I keep mine in drive or reverse it can run away. First gear low in my patrol can get up to 30 or 40 km/h. :o If on a steep angle you have to keep revs up also to keep in running being cari fed. You can keep the revs up in gear without loosing control on a steep hill. I'm getting reduction gears fitted on Wednesday so that should help. :D

Cheers Mick.


:o i heard auto patrols "run away" a bit on hills but i didn't know it was that much... i don't think i could hit 40 k's in low 3rd :) hmm, those reduction gears make heaps of sense now. i still don't like the idea of not being in gear, but in your circumstances, i understand completely. good luck with the gearing :D
I now only have a top speed of about 5km/h in first gear low. :D I cant wait to try it out properly though.

Cheers Mick.

[crusher]

I now only have a top speed of about 5km/h in first gear low. :D I cant wait to try it out properly though.

Cheers Mick.


How much did they end up setting you back Mick?

[Mick.]

I now only have a top speed of about 5km/h in first gear low. :D I cant wait to try it out properly though.

Cheers Mick.


How much did they end up setting you back Mick?
They where $1800 fitted. Mannell motors put them in. There an agent for Marks Adaptors. I definately think the 85% reduction would be overkill in Steves though. At a guess I reckon i'll have about a top speed of 30km'h with the overdrive on. I could get 90km'h in low range before.

Cheers Mick.