Should you use youre lockers in the sand??

[kingchevy]

In my old landcruiser with the 6.5 and the lockers I found it tended not ot bog down as much without the lockers has anyone tried lockers and no lockers??

[bad_religion_au]

i've never used lockers in sand (never had them when i did sand driving)... but i think they'd help you more than hinder you, because it will help prevent the syndrome where the opposite wheel will dig holes and leave you crossed up.

[kingchevy]

I beg to differ maybe it was my vehicle setup but it made it dig down even worse.

[mulesa]

maybe cos ur digging a rutt both sides if it starts slippin...i dunno

i drove stockton with a front locker..... didn't get bogged once... although, with the front locker, it tramlined realllllyyy bad!!

I find I'm turning the rear on and off. I've never used the front in sand, but I do use the rear. If I feel it starting to sink, I quickly switch it off and just back off the throttle for a quick sec to let it disengage, then hit it again. I left it in once, and buried both rears instead of just one.
Takes a bit of practice, but good excuse for hitting the beach regularly.

Corry

[taziiy]

depends on wether i turned it on or not but then i have used it to help me get out of a boggy spot were the open wheeler was spinning

[crankycruiser]

I use my rear one in the sand all the time.. if the sands real soft i use the front as well.. Havent been bogged on the beach yet.... yet ................................

[Mick.]

I used to have a factory locker in the back of my patrol and on soft sand it was useless. You couldn't steer it properly and i'd imagine having one in the locked as well would almost make it impossable to steer. I could actually go places without the locker engaged that I couldn't with it locked in. Harder sand would be a different story though but than you probably wouldn't need 4wd let alone lockers would you. ;D

Cheers Mick

[Humpy]

I use the rear locker on sand, mainly because I cant disengage it ;)

It makes for better doughnuts than when unlocked.

Except for when you are almost bogged, I dont think it makes a whole lot of difference

I would reccomend locking the centre diff if you have one

i use mine in the really soft stuff at stockton, they seem to help keep momentum up

[baby_troupe]

I'd use mine too. Would probably leave the rear in all the time & engage the front for dunes.

[4xgold0]

I'd use mine too. Would probably leave the rear in all the time & engage the front for dunes.
im with BT on this, works well

[bigjules]

I don't have cross axle locks but always use the centre diff lock, it makes a huge difference.

My mate, who drives stockton a lot, tells me that lockers are useless on the beach. He had a double locked Wrangler and has a double locked Cruiser 105. I can see how it might be usefull if you just start to bog down on one side, and have the other tyre on the harder stuff though.

Chip in for my lockers and I will give you all the definitive answer ;D ;D ;D 8)

[mudlux]

Seen a test done once between the same rig with and without lockers in the sand. The locked one only got marginly further than the unlocked.
Just laeve it in 2b and engage the rear, it's heaps more fun :o

[kingchevy]

I'm with you I have tested lockers in the sand and in general none locked vehicles driven properly in the sand destroy locked vehicles. depends on the sand quality though but in general no lockers defintely are the best way to go (from experience)

[Lacy1]

Lockers may have helped here, but got out with 20psi tyres. Its the worst I have been stuck to date.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a41/KathyGU/Bog1.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a41/KathyGU/Bog2.jpg ;)

[Humpy]

I recon I would have got out of this with a locker, but I wouldnt have been in that situation if I wasnt in 2WD ;D

http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/albums/album41/aac.sized.jpg

[diesel60]

I just spent the last few days on Stockton and I never once considered using my lockers. I didn't ever look like getting stuck either. The biggest thing needed for the sand is plenty of power...something the old 2H diesel isn't really good at.

[Mick.]

I just spent the last few days on Stockton and I never once considered using my lockers. I didn't ever look like getting stuck either. The biggest thing needed for the sand is plenty of power...something the old 2H diesel isn't really good at.
I know this is a little off topic. :P Stockon beach is a pretty hard beach I usually drive around up there in 2wd and only engage 4wd for hills. It funny I go up there all the time and see people bogged to the axles and I drive past with a trailer and in 2 wheel drive and don't even look like being stuck. If people let there tyres down to the right presure for their 4wd and the conditions at the time, not what Jonny down the road does they would never get stuck let alone need lockers to drive on sand. ;D I never have a set presure for sand driving. It can vary from 15psi down to 8psi depending on what beach i'm on and the conditions and weight i'm carrying at the time.

Cheers Mick

[Humpy]

Do ya recon that might have something to do with the 37" MTR's Mick :P

[Mick.]

Do ya recon that might have something to do with the 37" MTR's Mick :P
No i've only used the 37s on sand about 5 times. Most of my sand driving was done on 31 inch desert duelers and 33 inch cooper STs which are both good sand tyres though. ;)

[Lacy1]

Nup,
I agree with Mick...........In the pics I showed earlier in the thread I was in trouble. We dug a fair bit of sand away from the car (just for clearance) and let the tyres down to 20PSI, drove out no problem. But hey , it takes a bit more than sand to stop a Patrol. ;D

[Lacey]

Not much more though, Like a long steep hill at deep creeck c.p ;)

[Lacy1]

I believe that , like in most cases the driver was at fault there, not the car..

[kingchevy]

when I first started doing sand driving I had nothing but trouble I was always getting stuck it used to annoy the hell out of me but as my experience grew and the way I drove on sand changed with things like tyre pressure and how to attack certain obsticles. I NEVER have a problem I am always the guys towing and dragging everyone out. I think the theory behind lockers on the sand is that all the wheels are driving so obviously all the wheels are digging down when you take of so youre effectivly creating a small ridge in front of all youre tyres that the car has to climb over before it starts getting momentem up. without youre lockers in I reckon its easier for the car to do this and the only times I have been semi stuck lately I just stop before I feel the wheels digging down like in the photo of the nissan and just go back a few metres then go forward again I might have to do that more than once but it seems to work a treat I think what it does is just compacts the sand down a bit making it easier to drive on.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Lockers are a traction aid, designed to work along with all those other tips, tricks, and techniques to make your 4WDing more enjoyable. If you use them to increase traction on sand, you'll probly need to reduce tyre pressure a bit more than you're used to, and that in itself will also increase traction.

I've seen benefits from using them, and drawbacks from them too, but it all depends on what you are doing with all the rest. Simple answer to the question is "get out there and try it," emphasis on the getting out there bit!

And make sure you have a good time, don't over analyse the task, just try it and enjoy it!!

[kingchevy]

Good point I'm amazed our cars can even drive on sand its hard enough to walk on?

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Try this one for a concept that's just a bit out there!

The average human male exerts in the vicinity of 15 pounds per squ inch (psi) on the ground through their feet when they are standing still. When they walk or run, that pressure is increased by the motive force, whatever or however it may be applied, but look at your foot prints in the sand, as you walk, the toe tends to dig in a bit doesn't it!

If you can walk on it at 15 psi, your vehicle should be able to drive on it at 15 psi in each of the tyres, as long as you keep the motive force to about the same as a walker!! OR, drop your tyre pressures to less than 15 psi and use more than 1 walker power! That is to say, if you can walk on it, you should be able to drive on it, with or without lockers!!

Try it, and have fun!!

[kingchevy]

He thats not true I can go some places I cant walk on ;D like bigggggg steep clay hills on the creb track that were impossible to walk. ;D

[RED60]

Try this one for a concept that's just a bit out there!

The average human male exerts in the vicinity of 15 pounds per squ inch (psi) on the ground through their feet when they are standing still. When they walk or run, that pressure is increased by the motive force, whatever or however it may be applied, but look at your foot prints in the sand, as you walk, the toe tends to dig in a bit doesn't it!

If you can walk on it at 15 psi, your vehicle should be able to drive on it at 15 psi in each of the tyres, as long as you keep the motive force to about the same as a walker!! OR, drop your tyre pressures to less than 15 psi and use more than 1 walker power! That is to say, if you can walk on it, you should be able to drive on it, with or without lockers!!

Try it, and have fun!!
The 15lbs per sq inch from the footprint and the 15lbs per sq inch IN the tyre are 2 completely different things. To get a comparison of the ground loading only, you need to divide the weight of the vehicle/person by the total contact area of the tyres/feet with the ground.
So if the vehicle weighs 4000lbs and its total contact patch is 100 sq inches, its loading will be 40lbs per sq inch. If the person weighs 140lbs and the total area of the feet in contact with the ground is 20sq inches, the loading is 7 lbs per sq inch. These calcs only give the loading applied to the ground.
The internal pressure in the tyres does not affect the ground loading, although higher tyre pressure may reduce the contact patch and therefore increase the ground loading slightly.
It would be very difficult to directly compare walking with rolling as in tyres. 8) 8)

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

That all looks very interesting, red60, and I am sure that it is probably right, I'm certainly not in any position to question your assertation in any way; but the important thing in the post was the last bit......................

That is to say, if you can walk on it, you should be able to drive on it, with or without lockers!!

Try it, and have fun!!

[Humpy]

My calculations say the following

Average bloke
Weight, 200 pounds (90kg)
Foot length, 10 inches (254mm)
Average foot width, 2.5 inches (64mm)

Pressure when standing on one foot
200 / (10 x 2.5)
8.0 pounds / square inch (psi)

Average 4WD
(from 4WDM issue 59, Troopy, tyre pressure 15psi)
Weight, 4982 pounds (2.26t)
Tyre width, 7.7 inches (196mm)
Tyre length, 10 inches (254mm)

Pressure on each tyre
(4982 / 4) / (7.7 x 10)
16.2 psi

The average 4WD exerts twice the pressure on the ground as the average barefoot bloke standing on one foot. Although as the tyre sinks into the sand the length of the footprint will increase by 10-20%

As red60 has said a rolling tyre and a walking foot aren’t really the same so the comparison is dubious :-/

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Kingchevvy got it!! :o Well, at least I hope he tried it!

[kingchevy]

I noticed 4wdmonthly did a sand driving article in the mag I wonder who writes them and who drives the car. Cause I think they should try the locker theory out in one of the magazines for us because the only car I have that has lockers is my 75 series and It doesnt go to the beach much anymore. altough I have already tried it on the beach it was a while ago.

[Sea-Dog]

When I am on the beach and playing in the soft stuff etc I generally don't lock my lockers up except the centre diff (80 series cruiser) and it gets through most places reasonably easy.... If for any reason I stop and it is really soft or I have my tyres up too high I don't bother letting the air out if I only have to re inflate over the next hill so I will just lock the lockers up and let the car idle through slowly in low range....

I find without lockers you are generally concerned with letting air out, backing up and getting the momentum behind you to climb up on top of the sand to keep going.... with lockers you can go slow with higher air pressure and let the tyres chew their way through the sand..

I have got some good video of my car with the missus driving with the lockers on in low range just slowly churning through soft sand. The tyres were still near full pressure and were digging about 6 inches into the sand and just slowly crawling along until it was out.. DX80 was right behind with his tyres a little lower and drove straight over the top.

Overall I think if you have the tyres at the correct pressure and some momentum it really doesn't make any difference if you are locked up or not!!

Cheers

[kingchevy]

Good point I found if I locked the lockers in low range first and idle it would climb anything even without me in the car ;D

[mudlux]

Like I said put it in 2 b lock the rear diff and go have some fun doing donuts around all the soft roaders and Pajero's burried up to the eye balls.
SeaDog and myself once had some fun when we pulled a fully loaded cruiser that had run out of fuel through a sand blow at Fraser.
What a sight, A Cruiser hooked to a Lux hooked to a Cruiser, the front two with their turbo diesel's singing at full noise with front and rear lockers spinning muddies shooting rooster tails of sand skywards.

Argh those were the days, makes me wana go turn up the wick some more.

[kingchevy]

Getting soft mate I pulled a fully loaded hilux of the beach with just my cruiser ute they sound good at full noise whistling there heads off.

[mudlux]

Getting soft mate I pulled a fully loaded hilux of the beach with just my cruiser ute they sound good at full noise whistling there heads off.

This bloke was bogged to the axels and the Kingfisher bay bus was bogged in front of him after trying to pull him out.
So I pulled the bus loaded with tourist out of the soft sand, then hooked up to the Cruiser. After not getting far Sea Dog hooked up to the front of me and we draged him out, then we found he had it in gear, Low Range, engine off.

[RageRacing]

after reading this thread I decided to try different dunes at stockton last weekend with and without lockers. I have to say locker make absolutly no difference IMO based on the resuls of my test ;D very scientific it was to ::) :D

[Sea-Dog]

Getting soft mate I pulled a fully loaded hilux of the beach with just my cruiser ute they sound good at full noise whistling there heads off.

This bloke was bogged to the axels and the Kingfisher bay bus was bogged in front of him after trying to pull him out.
So I pulled the bus loaded with tourist out of the soft sand, then hooked up to the Cruiser. After not getting far Sea Dog hooked up to the front of me and we draged him out, then we found he had it in gear, Low Range, engine off.


DIDN'T HE HAVE THE HANDBRAKE ON ALSO??
;D ;D

[kingchevy]

come on now I know youre lying ;D

[MudSlinger]

I just spent the last few days on Stockton and I never once considered using my lockers. I didn't ever look like getting stuck either. The biggest thing needed for the sand is plenty of power...something the old 2H diesel isn't really good at.
Stick a hairdryer on it ;)

[bad_religion_au]

well this weekend i trialled my rig in the sand for the first time since fitting the Auto locker. i had my hessitations but it performed 100% better than before. including having the traction to recover a stuck patrol that 2 unlocked vehicles chained together couldn't pull out.

i'm sold on using a rear locker in sand. spent most of my time in high 2wd even in the soft stuff because i never got the situation where one wheel would dig a hole.

[kingchevy]

hmm interesting what tyre pressure were you all running?

[Big Boots]

Never had lockers, never been in a car with lockers and never ever been bogged on sand.....at all. Gotta love a lifted turbo subaru ;D The lux isn't to bad either, might even let the tyres down now I have some stauns :P

[bad_religion_au]

hmm interesting what tyre pressure were you all running?


bfg all terrains 33x12.5 at 16 psi for most the day. when i got myself stuck under the high tide mark trying to skull drag the patrol out with the blown t case i dropped them to 8psi to get my ass above the water line. the two cruisers that couldn't get the patrol to budge were at 12psi, on bfg all terrains (might have been 10.5's).

oh and when i pulled the patrol that the two cruisers chained together couldn't. my t case popped into 2wd without me realising, and only a soft patch down the beach about a k made me realise.

[simonsurf]

I once towed another surf off Stockton (G'day Frank ;) - really exciting stuff eh?

Seriously though, my older brother, about 10 years ago, towed a cooked 80 series off stockton in his early 80's model 2.6 pajero wagon. For those in the know, he took him out Lavis Lane, which is the softest part of the whole place.
The mighty Paj had 28" cheesecutter mud and snows running at about 12 psi and did it in high range with no dramas whatsoever.
I also knew a bloke who used to take his stock standard beetle, again with little cheesecutters, fishing on Stockton everyday.
Neither of these cars had lockers :P

My point is, if you get tyre pressures right and have a little bit of experience, you won't have trouble on the sand.

Every car I've rescued at Stockton has been running really high pressures. You know the story;

"Have you let your tyres down?"
"Yeah mate"
"How far?"
"A ll the way down to 35psi.........."

Having said that, I like to use my rear locker at times just for the fun factor ;D ;D

[Mick.]

As you probably know Simon the hardest part of getting someone out of a bog is to convince them to let there tyres down to a reasonable presure to begin with. ::) I always get the "i've only got to get over there so if you tow me out of here i'll be right" ::) instead of just letting the tyres down in the first place.

Cheers Mick.

[HT]

Never had lockers, never been in a car with lockers and never ever been bogged on sand.....at all. Gotta love a lifted turbo subaru ;D The lux isn't to bad either, might even let the tyres down now I have some stauns :P


If you ever get a car with lockers, you will enjoy significantly improved off-road performance in all types of conditions, and you still won't get bogged in the sand (hopefully) :P

For my 2 cents worth, I simply think lockers are least easier on the track, ever noticed those sand or soft earthen tracks that have been rutted in an alternating pattern, or right near the top on a hard climb that has a deep, tyre gobbling circular rut on one wheel track :P

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

I'm with you Haretrigger, mick, and co; - most of the real damage done to tracks is done by people too busy showing everyone how macho they are to pull it into 4wd or let their tyres down!! They are generally the lugs who get stuck in places and seem to think the world owes them a recovery, or just 'cause your there, you hafta help! Admittedly, Stockton Beach is one of the rapidly lessening 'safe' places where you can just have fun, without too much concern for damaging the grass!

Lockers are really an extention of the same 'look after the track approach. Fit the vehicle out as well as you can and funds allow, learn how to drive the vehicle properly, and as you get better, more adventurous, and go further, devoting more $$$ to the recreation activity of your choice, fit the lockers (and/or other accessories that suit your needs). Used properly, they will limit the damage to the track, and we might get to keep access for just a little bit longer!

[simonsurf]

Hear hear ;D

[snakey1989]

lockers will reduce steering but gain traction... DER!
So if you are in reallllllly soft sand, a rear locker might be in the grabs. both lockers can be used for straight driving but forget it on soft and winding sand routes. Heardish sand and you shjouldn't need them!

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

REAL lockers DON'T reduce steering!!! But the traction gain is HEAPS!!

[mike_fnq]

REAL lockers DON'T reduce steering!!! But the traction gain is HEAPS!!

Hi Peter,
would you mind elaborating on this? My thoughts and experience leads to the belief that all lockers front and rear (when engaged) have an effect on the steerability of the vehicle. It just has to be... with diffs locked it the wheels can't turn at different speeds so the vehicle cannot be as easy to steer almost by definition.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

I keep saying it, and people who experience it support it, but people who have never used a Detroit Locker Series IV Softlocker simply have no concept!!

A Series IV Softlocker has very little (if any) impact on your steering! It works by driving both wheels all the time, ie locked, EXCEPT when 1 wheel is ground driven faster! Then it disengages the ground driven wheel and allows full differential action. It is a TRUE Automatic UN-locking Differential. In the normal course of events, it will work on road or firm surfaces very much like a good Limited Slip Diff, the rest of the time it provides 100 percent traction unless one wheel is ground driven faster!

When you are in sand, the thing will actually provide BETTER steerability than an open diff, 'cos it allows the turn to be input, then drags the front around. If you find it digging in, you are probably running too high a tyre pressure. On rocks etc, it allows full differential action through releasing the ground driven wheel, and the savage engage/disengage of years past has been reduced to a minimum, then dampened by the addition of a clutch pack to either side, similar to an LSD! If it savagely engages/disengages, the diff is telling you that YOU are doing something wrong, change your driving style!

[GeoffSA]

Sorry Peter,

But I'm with Snakey on this one.

Not everyone can afford your REAL lockers, therefore the steering overall for lockers will be restricted with most front diff locks.

Geoff.

[bad_religion_au]

Sorry Peter,

But I'm with Snakey on this one.

Not everyone can afford your REAL lockers, therefore the steering overall for lockers will be restricted with most front diff locks.

Geoff.


the cheapest commercial locker available is an auto locker, which does the same as the detroit, only less smoothly... ask boof how his lokka goes in the front end on sand...

[mike_fnq]

Ok understand that... didn't realise till I read some of your other posts that you were talking 'bout an auto-locker. Do you have any empirical evidence to back that up? from the research I've done the soflocker is generally accepted as a better auto-locker than other auto-lockers. In saying this though what I found was, that this was in reference to strength and better on-road manners, not performance per se (ie they don't allow unlocked turning performance)

The new “Detroit SofLocker” differential indicated by an “SL” in the model number (187SL16D), provides smooth and quieter operation in the drive-coast mode. A dampening device has been inserted into the inboard end of each side gear.

Detroit Locker differentials should not be used in front-drive axles or light on-highway vehicles unless used with unlocking hubs that are fully unlocked on-highway.

Not tryin to shoot ya down here, just tryin to establish facts. I have little doubt that the softlocker would have very little effect on your ability to steer but my guess would be that it would definitely affect the turning circle. That's why I'd be keen to see some empirical data.

[Mick.]

Ok understand that... didn't realise till I read some of your other posts that you were talking 'bout an auto-locker. Do you have any empirical evidence to back that up? from the research I've done the soflocker is generally accepted as a better auto-locker than other auto-lockers. In saying this though what I found was, that this was in reference to strength and better on-road manners, not performance per se (ie they don't allow unlocked turning performance)

The new “Detroit SofLocker” differential indicated by an “SL” in the model number (187SL16D), provides smooth and quieter operation in the drive-coast mode. A dampening device has been inserted into the inboard end of each side gear.

Detroit Locker differentials should not be used in front-drive axles or light on-highway vehicles unless used with unlocking hubs that are fully unlocked on-highway.

Not tryin to shoot ya down here, just tryin to establish facts. I have little doubt that the softlocker would have very little effect on your ability to steer but my guess would be that it would definitely affect the turning circle. That's why I'd be keen to see some empirical data.
Thats true but detroit have another auto locker which is designed aspecially for contant 4wds. I think its called the A to Z locker DON'T quote me on the name though. ;D ;D. I've actually spoken to people who have the soft locker and said it has no affect what so ever on there steering off road.

Cheers Mick.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Not quite A to Z, but there is an EZE-locker, a version similar to a Lokka or Lockright, and about the same sort of price, but with the same drawbacks, or the E-Locker, which is an electrically selectable locker, designed especially for Constant 4WD's, but I'm not positive that it's actually available in the Australian market, you'd have to talk to Opposite Lock, or Locked Drive Systems about that.

Along with Air lockers, and Powertrax or whaterver the TJM version is, those are the types of lockers that do make an impact on your steer ability when switched on! They are then simply a locked diff, with no differential action until unlocked! It just not always as easy to unlock as flicking the switch, 'cause they don't always unlock under load, and it's not always simple to reduce the load enough to turn it off so you can make that all important turn!!!

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Mike_fnq what empirical evidence do you want? I have driven many vehicles over the years, and tried most types of lockers, including air lockers, cig lockers, MacNamarra, Lokka's, recently Lockright, and powertrax. I keep going back to Detroit Lockers, particularly since the introduction of the Series IV Softlocker. They are almost undetectable on road, and the only way you know they are there off road is that you just keep going where everyone else struggles!

I've put em in just about every vehicle I use, or get near: my 2 Patrols, 1 of them both front and rear, 1 just rear, my mum's slightly modded Pathfinder, my wife's more than a little Feroza, and the L300 and the Ford S/wagon I used to own, amongst others! No, I don't work for them or get paid a commision by them, but I do run a small 4WD Tag-a-long and 4WD trg operation, and I get to see peoples vehicles with all sorts of mods, PLUS I get the 'pleasure' of getting them thru some 4WDing situations that I probly shouldn't have to, simply 'cos they've made a decision based on price that doesn't meet their needs and fails them when they need it most!!

I am an avid fan of Detroit Lockers for 4WD's, particularly if you want to do that little bit tougher stuff than most! They are the 'best' solution to the needs of 4WDing and on-roading, bar none, EXCEPT for people's budgetary constraints! Therefore, if you have the money, put in the Detroit, not the lesser substitute, it only makes sense!

[Troppo]

I am finding this thread interesting 'cause I was thinking of getting a locker for my new 2001 TD Prado. Here's why: When testing out the Prado on some hills with extra-soft sand tracks, I found one I could not get up. Dropped the tyre pressure down from 22 psi to 18 psi and had no trouble at all (In the morning I had dropped pressure down to 20 but on the hot sand, it went up.) But going a bit further, the track went into a string of huge left and right holes from tyres spinning out. The Prado couldn't go through this so I reversed back down the slope. I could have tried dropping tyre pressure again. However, my thinking was that a locker may have helped in this specific situation as the ground was extra uneven which encouraged wheel slip.

So, in this situation where the sand is full of deep holes, would lockers prove useful than where the sand is more even?

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

An auto locker like the Detroit will push (or pull) you thru a situation like that with consumate ease! They are worth much more than articulation in just about all situations, and I would argue that by fitting one in the rear, the weight transfer bit would see you benefitting far more than one in the front ie going up hill the weight transfer loads up the rear wheels and you can keep the revs down to that required for traction there, limiting the chance of damage thru front wheelspin and despite one front wheel being in the air the locker will still push you up anything your tyres have traction, and your vehicle has the power and clearance to climb. Going downhill, the weight transfer will tend to keep the front wheels on the ground, so that even with the IFS front, lack of articulation won't be a significant player plus the locker in the rear will still push regardless of one rear wheel being in the air, and it won't allow the airborne rear wheel to spin faster, limiting the potential for comprimised brakes and axle damage on touchdown!

The cheaper auto lockers will do the same, but with a few additional characteristics that may not be desirable on road. The manual lockers really should only be used once forward progress stops, or if you can see that you'll need it. They should be able to assist in this circumstance, particularly in the rear for the same reasons as above.

[mike_fnq]

Mike_fnq what empirical evidence do you want? I have driven many vehicles over the years, and tried most types of lockers, including air lockers, cig lockers, MacNamarra, Lokka's, recently Lockright, and powertrax. I keep going back to Detroit Lockers, particularly since the introduction of the Series IV Softlocker. They are almost undetectable on road, and the only way you know they are there off road is that you just keep going where everyone else struggles!

I've put em in just about every vehicle I use, or get near: my 2 Patrols, 1 of them both front and rear, 1 just rear, my mum's slightly modded Pathfinder, my wife's more than a little Feroza, and the L300 and the Ford S/wagon I used to own, amongst others! No, I don't work for them or get paid a commision by them, but I do run a small 4WD Tag-a-long and 4WD trg operation, and I get to see peoples vehicles with all sorts of mods, PLUS I get the 'pleasure' of getting them thru some 4WDing situations that I probly shouldn't have to, simply 'cos they've made a decision based on price that doesn't meet their needs and fails them when they need it most!!

I am an avid fan of Detroit Lockers for 4WD's, particularly if you want to do that little bit tougher stuff than most! They are the 'best' solution to the needs of 4WDing and on-roading, bar none, EXCEPT for people's budgetary constraints! Therefore, if you have the money, put in the Detroit, not the lesser substitute, it only makes sense!

I guess by empirical evidence I mean just that i.e. my turning circle is XX meters and the factory quotes XX meters and so on. None of what you say is empirical, its impressive anecdotal evidence but that's it. In no way do I question your depth of experience or your belief in the product. But is easy to get carried away with "wow this feels geat! so smooth and quiet!" without noticing the compromise in performance.

If they truly were as you state, it would be a very rare comp rig that didn't run them, especially in the US. Even Tractech don't make the claims for their product that you do. The quotes in my earlier post are from their website as is this one "The Detroit SofLocker provides the same performance of the Detropit Locker with reduced noise".

My original question was to find out if there was some "miracle" locking system I wasn't aware of because you had claimed no effect on steering. I haven't seen anything that would convince me that the soflocker is it. I misinterpreted your zealous support of a product your happy with.

IMHO I believe the ultimate no expense spared traction set up would be to have something like the Haultech system AND selectable lockers of some description (in fact I really like the sound of the Detroit Electrac). This would truly be a zero compromise set up!

[Mick.]

Mike_fnq what empirical evidence do you want? I have driven many vehicles over the years, and tried most types of lockers, including air lockers, cig lockers, MacNamarra, Lokka's, recently Lockright, and powertrax. I keep going back to Detroit Lockers, particularly since the introduction of the Series IV Softlocker. They are almost undetectable on road, and the only way you know they are there off road is that you just keep going where everyone else struggles!

I've put em in just about every vehicle I use, or get near: my 2 Patrols, 1 of them both front and rear, 1 just rear, my mum's slightly modded Pathfinder, my wife's more than a little Feroza, and the L300 and the Ford S/wagon I used to own, amongst others! No, I don't work for them or get paid a commision by them, but I do run a small 4WD Tag-a-long and 4WD trg operation, and I get to see peoples vehicles with all sorts of mods, PLUS I get the 'pleasure' of getting them thru some 4WDing situations that I probly shouldn't have to, simply 'cos they've made a decision based on price that doesn't meet their needs and fails them when they need it most!!

I am an avid fan of Detroit Lockers for 4WD's, particularly if you want to do that little bit tougher stuff than most! They are the 'best' solution to the needs of 4WDing and on-roading, bar none, EXCEPT for people's budgetary constraints! Therefore, if you have the money, put in the Detroit, not the lesser substitute, it only makes sense!

I guess by empirical evidence I mean just that i.e. my turning circle is XX meters and the factory quotes XX meters and so on. None of what you say is empirical, its impressive anecdotal evidence but that's it. In no way do I question your depth of experience or your belief in the product. But is easy to get carried away with "wow this feels geat! so smooth and quiet!" without noticing the compromise in performance.

If they truly were as you state, it would be a very rare comp rig that didn't run them, especially in the US. Even Tractech don't make the claims for their product that you do. The quotes in my earlier post are from their website as is this one "The Detroit SofLocker provides the same performance of the Detropit Locker with reduced noise".

My original question was to find out if there was some "miracle" locking system I wasn't aware of because you had claimed no effect on steering. I haven't seen anything that would convince me that the soflocker is it. I misinterpreted your zealous support of a product your happy with.

IMHO I believe the ultimate no expense spared traction set up would be to have something like the Haultech system AND selectable lockers of some description (in fact I really like the sound of the Detroit Electrac). This would truly be a zero compromise set up!
Snap On are the best tools in the word and by a long shot. I been in a few pits over the years and most pits use Sydcrome or Kingcrome not because there better but because there cheaper. What i'm saying is just because everyone uses X brand doesn't mean they are the best.

Cheers Mick.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Doesn't emperical mean "based on observation"??

I take your point though, you want some 'evidence thru comparison'! That will only come with the comparison, which is what I have done a lot of 'for myself!!' In fact, I've just spent the last few months driving without the lockers, just to remind myself of the differences (and 'cos I hadn't got around to changing them over). One frequent passenger assumed that the diffs were still not fitted, when we went on a short 'off-road' trip, including mud, water crossings, and an easy beach run! He made the 'observation' that you really cannot tell the difference between the handling and behaviour of the vehicle when diffs are fitted or not, and that he was sure that my vehicle without the Detroits fitted was no different to his vehicle, with one fitted in the front. I then had a degree of difficulty to convince him that my vehicle actually had the Detroits re-fitted. In the end, the only thing that convinced him was letting him watch the vehicle drive thru a serious stretch of mud. That's observational evidence for him, and for you, it's anecdotal! Different positions in the comparison, isn't it!

The only real way you can compare for yourself, is to find someone who has a Detroit Softlocker fitted, and do the direct comparison. How often are you down Adelaide way?

And Mick, I agree, lots of people use Lokka's and Lockrights, although the drawbacks are quite well known. Reading these threads doesn't reflect that, as so many do what mike_fnq says. Now I'm not saying that I mightn't be doing some of it too, but most of the info I provide is supported through various comparisons and publications put out by a number of authoritative organisations over the years, including the Trachtek authorised and LDS supplied "The Locker Book" I don't know if this is still in publication, but it might help mike_fnq source the evidence he is after!

[mike_fnq]

Boys this is gettin silly...
Mick
what the? ::) Actually, I agree completely but, just because they are the most expensive doesn't make them the best either. What makes something the best is.... well it's the best by an agreed or accepted set of measures. If what you are suggesting is that most comp rigs use selectable lockers because they are cheaper, then I don't think that holds water....
Also "the best" is quite subjective, what is the best for one person/application is not for another. Someone may judge something "the best" because it's functionally equivalent and because some SOB workin in the shop keeps "losing" snap-ons it's more cost effective to have the Sidchromes.

Peter,
empirical: Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment
anecdotal: Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis
you decide which is more apt.
All I'm saying is there is bound to be some effect on steering. I have no doubt that it's a stong, smooth and quiet unit that works effectively. You made the claim that it had no effect on steering, not even Tractech claim that (that I can find!).
I have found some empirical evidence in none other than 4WD monthly's modified 4WHEELER vol9 p6-20
5 Defender 110s
1 unlocked
1 ARB airlocker in rear
1 Trachtech Detroit locker in rear(doesn't specically state but i assume soflocker because that's all you can get for that particular model-installed for test)
1 Maxi drive vacuum locker in rear
1 Factory electronic traction control (ETC)
On page 17 there is a turning circle test
The results were that the Maxi Drive, Airlocker, ETC AND Detroit Locker all increased the turning circle by 2m! Of course in all but the Detroit you can replicate the unlocked performace because you can turn them off. Ergo the Detroit locker (like every active locker)does affect the turning of your 4WD.

I don't get to Adelaide much but I'd love to go for a drive with ya if i do!

As my last word(s) on the matter for those considering diff-locks.
1 get them
2 All lockers will improve your traction outa sight
3 get them
4 research, research, research
5 get them
6 if possible drive with different types in the vehicle type you will be using
7 get them
8 make a decision based on your needs, driving style & budget etc .
9 GET THEM!
10 once you've got them drive cautiously until you're used to them. Be particularly cautious with the loud pedal.
11 USE THEM and ENJOY THEM!

[Troppo]

Diff locks stop people from stealing your diffs, don't they? ;) Lock em or lose em! ;D

[Mick.]

Boys this is gettin silly...
Mick
what the? ::) Actually, I agree completely but, just because they are the most expensive doesn't make them the best either. What makes something the best is.... well it's the best by an agreed or accepted set of measures. If what you are suggesting is that most comp rigs use selectable lockers because they are cheaper, then I don't think that holds water....
Also "the best" is quite subjective, what is the best for one person/application is not for another. Someone may judge something "the best" because it's functionally equivalent and because some SOB workin in the shop keeps "losing" snap-ons it's more cost effective to have the Sidchromes.


My point wasn't that because something is the dearest its the best. My point was just because everyone else uses that product it doesn't make that the best. I use what best suits me not what suits everyone else thats what i'm saying.

Cheers Mick.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

mike_fnq, you want to observe or measure tests, you actually have to do them, come on down and I'll be more than pleased to help you do them! If you're just going to ask about it, you are only going to get anecdotal evidence, because people are responding to your questions by telling you of their experiences. You can then take that anecdotal advice on face value, either believe it.... or not - but it was YOU who asked! No skin off my nose!!

I've spent a lot of my time doing all those repeatable and measurable tests that you seem to want to do, and it was by doing those things that I became covinced that the Detroit Locker Series IV Softlocker was by far the best locker of any type FOR MY PURPOSES. I actually used words (more than once) straight out of the Tractech blurb that claims that the Softlocker will have ABSOLUTELY NO MORE IMPACT ON YOUR DRIVING THAN A GOOD LSD!!! I found that to be a very good description, and when you're talking Nissans, they come with a good LSD! If you drive reasonably, there is no impact on your driving with it in the rear, EXCEPT that you go further (and most people actually get better tyre wear - no spin, no wear, LSD's hafta spin some to work)! That is why that the majority of the world's Military organisations use vehicles fitted with Detroit Lockers, particularly on those vehicles that must be driven by the average soldier with little or no additional training to make them as 'go anywhere' capable as they can be!

I will always recommend that you put the Detroit in the rear first, it will give you the benefit ALL the time, both on and off road, and you will get a 100% improvement in 4WD ability (Straight from Tractech) You will also get 70% of 4WD ability in 2WD (straight from Tractech) All this comes at the cost of no more impact on your driving than that you would get from fitting good LSD!

If you fit one in the front, it's just like fitting a good LSD to the front! How many people have done that? Do You know what its like? I have a couple of good LSD's (taken out of the back of a Patrol) that can be made to fit in the front of a Patrol, they can be yours for a reasonable price!

Anyhow, you can take the advice and info given to you by anyone here, and do with it as you will. I think you will be amazed at the lack of impact a Detroit Softlocker makes on your driving! Try it, you'll love it! You'll get 'the locker grin!'

[mike_fnq]

REAL lockers DON'T reduce steering!!! But the traction gain is HEAPS!!




I have found some empirical evidence in none other than 4WD monthly's modified 4WHEELER vol9 p6-20
5 Defender 110s
1 unlocked
1 ARB airlocker in rear
1 Trachtech Detroit locker in rear(doesn't specically state but i assume soflocker because that's all you can get for that particular model-installed for test)
1 Maxi drive vacuum locker in rear
1 Factory electronic traction control (ETC)
On page 17 there is a turning circle test
The results were that the Maxi Drive, Airlocker, ETC AND Detroit Locker all increased the turning circle by 2m! Of course in all but the Detroit you can replicate the unlocked performace because you can turn them off. Ergo the Detroit locker (like every active locker)does affect the turning of your 4WD.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Was it in/on sand? What tyre pressures did they have? Were they all running the same pressure? Were the tyres all the same diameter/type?

Back in early 1994, I compared 3 patrols, all GQ's, but not the same year, all with the same diff ratios and the same type of tyre running at the same pressures: 1 unlocked, 1 front locker, 1 rear locker. We did a fair amount of testing in various 4WD situations, at a small track on a hillside in Hackham, here in South Aus. There was a fair variety of 4WD obstacles, including mud, water, humps, dips, climbs, descents, cross axle obstacles, and more. One particular test was of particular interest to this discussion, we tested the turning circle of the vehicles.

We initially tested this on tall, wet grass, by doing some do-nuts at low speed. The unlocked and the rear locker equipped GQ's followed each others tracks, both in 2WD. Without digging out the notebook that I used to record the details in, I think the diameter of the turning circle was about 12.5 metres. The GQ with the front locker ran about 1.5 metres wider, but it was in 4WD, and the circle was the same diameter as the unlocked GQ when 4WD was selected. When the rear locker fitted GQ selected 4WD, it also ran in the same tracks as the other 2.

We repeated this test on firm, dry ground (dirt, with a loose covering of sand), and then on the same surface, but sprayed with a hose for about 20 mins, making for wet, surface mud, but without any real depth. In each case, they all ran in the same tracks in 2WD and again in 4WD UNLESS the driver accelerated and decelerated aggresively whilst turning. That caused ALL vehicles to steer erratically wider, deviating out from the smooth throttle position tracks, and we could hear the locked vehicles to engage/disengage audibly from outside the vehicle. That noise was only discernable inside the vehicle when the accel/decel was VERY aggressive, and not only did it get louder, but the outside wheel 'grabbed' and dragged the vehcile back into the original, tighter circle.

We didn't try it on sand at that time, but later (a few months) on did a similar test on the sand behind the dunes at Beachport, initially only with the 2 vehicles with lockers. When we were about 1/2 way through, a friend who had intended to be with us with his unlocked GQ, as the control vehicle, arrived. He immediately tried to match the circles which we had created, I think about 15m in diameter, and was unable to get within 2 metres of the same diameter, he continued to run wide! We checked to make sure that all other things were equal, and discovered that his tyres were running at 25psi, while we were running both other vehicles at 18psi! When his tyre pressure was dropped to the same as the other vehicles, his circle diameter reduced to almost match the others, but still about 1/2 metre larger. Reducing his tyre pressure to 15 psi did not help, and neither did increasing it again. We assumed that the locker on the front was 'pulling' the turn tighter, and the locker on the back was 'pushing' the front wheels to make it turn tighter. The unlocked vehicle had neither advantage and could not match the tighter circle.

We also tried increasing the tyre pressure on the locked vehicles, and as we did that progressively, the circles got larger with each 2 psi increase, as the vehicles tended to 'churn' into the sand more. When we got to 26 psi, the circles were about 3 metres larger than the initial circles, (up to about 18m) while the unlocked vehicle still maintained his initial, high tyre pressure, 17m dia circle. That convinced us that the tyre pressure played a significant part of the drivability in sand, not only for the locked vehicles, but also for the un-locked vehicle.

I ask again, were the landies in/on sand? What tyre pressures did they have? Were they all running the same pressure? Were the tyres all the same diameter/type?

[Troppo]

Wow!

In my humble and unedukated opinion, I assume that when a vehicle's left and right wheels are locked to each other, then turning would be harder than when the wheels ran through a standard diff since either inside or outside wheel would have to slip. Therefore, I would expect the turning circle would be larger when the diffs were locked. This is what the info which Mike_fnq gives appears to show.

However, the experiments which Peter at aawen 4x4 did, indicate that that there are a combination of complex factors involved. For example, tyre pressures made a major difference. I know myself, with my limited experience, my vehicle turns sharper on sand with low pressures than high. Very interesting that some experiments Peter did showed sharper turning for vehicles with lockers.

So, I am still left wondering about lockers and turning on sand. We need more data. ???

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

That's the important thing about the Detroit Locker. It is normally locked, but whenever one wheel is ground driven faster than the engine driven wheel, it allows FULL differential action. The engage/disengage action is seperate from the torque transfer, and its also got the dampening effect built in, so it doesn't usually make its presence felt. Besides, the amount of additional wheel turning is as little as 2" at the tread, ie. when you change lanes, the outside wheel tread turns just a little further than the inside wheel. That is usually enough to allow disengagement, and it will then remain disengaged until the wheel speeds equalise.

[mike_fnq]

Wow!

In my humble and unedukated opinion, I assume that when a vehicle's left and right wheels are locked to each other, then turning would be harder than when the wheels ran through a standard diff since either inside or outside wheel would have to slip. Therefore, I would expect the turning circle would be larger when the diffs were locked. This is what the info which Mike_fnq gives appears to show.

However, the experiments which Peter at aawen 4x4 did, indicate that that there are a combination of complex factors involved. For example, tyre pressures made a major difference. I know myself, with my limited experience, my vehicle turns sharper on sand with low pressures than high. Very interesting that some experiments Peter did showed sharper turning for vehicles with lockers.

So, I am still left wondering about lockers and turning on sand. We need more data. ???


I think you'll find that it depends on the particular surface a lot

When the surface is generally tractive (grippy) ALL lockers (when engaged) will give a larger turning circle than an open diff - that's simple physics it cannot be otherwise.

When the surface is partly non-tractive (a bit slippery) it will depend a lot on driving style, speed etc. eg when a wheel on an opened diff begins to spin the opposite wheel ceases steering and becomes a plough - hence a wider turning circle.

On very slippery surfaces both locked and unlocked will have a wider turning circle than on a tractive surface but a locked differential (of any description) will have more steerage (by nature of both wheels turning) than an open one, if indeed the open can get through at all! because at this stage an open diff'd vehicle would be relying heavily on momentum.

The science and logic seems quite straight forward (pun intended!) ;)

[CanberraMav]

I would use a rear locker only if i neded it in the sand.

And as for locker choice:
Detroit in the rear would be fine. In the front...forget it

ARB is the go for a front locker. You need to be able to turn off the locker to make turns at low PSI.

And the soft lockers are still noisey and in a smaller rig as in suzi or similar are a pain in the ass. They lock and unlock all the time around corners etc.

Really any locker would be fine for the rear they are all rough and noisey i reckon. ARB is the choice for all around traction and comfort.
Twin ARBs are the go and thats why the majority of people run them.

[Humpy]

That's the important thing about the Detroit Locker. It is normally locked, but whenever one wheel is ground driven faster than the engine driven wheel, it allows FULL differential action. The engage/disengage action is seperate from the torque transfer, and its also got the dampening effect built in, so it doesn't usually make its presence felt. Besides, the amount of additional wheel turning is as little as 2" at the tread, ie. when you change lanes, the outside wheel tread turns just a little further than the inside wheel. That is usually enough to allow disengagement, and it will then remain disengaged until the wheel speeds equalise.




When you say "full differential action" does it really behave like a standard diff, or just freewheel like other auto lockers?

If it can be true diff, I want one

[Mick.]

That's the important thing about the Detroit Locker. It is normally locked, but whenever one wheel is ground driven faster than the engine driven wheel, it allows FULL differential action. The engage/disengage action is seperate from the torque transfer, and its also got the dampening effect built in, so it doesn't usually make its presence felt. Besides, the amount of additional wheel turning is as little as 2" at the tread, ie. when you change lanes, the outside wheel tread turns just a little further than the inside wheel. That is usually enough to allow disengagement, and it will then remain disengaged until the wheel speeds equalise.




When you say "full differential action" does it really behave like a standard diff, or just freewheel like other auto lockers?

If it can be true diff, I want one
After doing a bit of research and speaking to guys who have had both the detroit soft lockers and air lockers i've desided to get them for my patrol. The owner of Opposite Lock in Newcastle has just put them in the front and rear of his new pajero and he loves them.

[Bond]

I have just purchased an ez locker for the FRONT of my surf. I have manual hubs at the font but still have the button inside to cahnge from 2wd to 4wd once the hubs are locked.

Probably a stupid question but....
What will happen once i install the auto locker? Will the button inside still work?

Anyone else got one in the front of an IFS 4wd? What should i be careful of now?

Cheers

Bond

[bad_religion_au]

I have just purchased an ez locker for the FRONT of my surf. I have manual hubs at the font but still have the button inside to cahnge from 2wd to 4wd once the hubs are locked.

Probably a stupid question but....
What will happen once i install the auto locker? Will the button inside still work?

Anyone else got one in the front of an IFS 4wd? What should i be careful of now?

Cheers

Bond


careful of cv's for a start... wedge a wheel in a tight place and give it a boot to drive out and it might munch them instead of transmitting the drive to the other wheel (as would happen with an open diff)

is the 2wd/ 4wd button the transfer case button??? if so then yes it will still work...

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

Humpy, I'm not quite sure what your 'freewheeling' comment is referring to, but yes, the Detroit Softlocker provides "full differential action when unlocked"
It is normally locked, and unlocks when 1 wheel is ground driven faster than the drive wheel. This is to allow full differential action whilst turning, driving over uneven ground, etc on firm surfaces. It only takes the tread, or a point on the circumference of the tyre to move as little as 2" further than the driven wheel and the locker will disengage, allowing "full differential action!" When unlocked, it is actually just an open diff, it's just that most of the time it is locked, only unlocking when you need it to!

Bond, what bad_religion_au says, but don't be vastly worried about CV's until you fit 35's or 37's. They should manage OK 'till then! Avoid snatching uphill and in reverse, either 1 at a time, but not both, that's just asking for CV's to go munchies!

[foxy]

Peter, what is the average cost for one of the Softlocker units??

Say for a 96 Hillux? Just ballpark.

Cheers

Foxy

[Mick.]

Peter, what is the average cost for one of the Softlocker units??

Say for a 96 Hillux? Just ballpark.

Cheers

Foxy
Ring Opposite Lock they sell and fit them. To give you and idea the GU patrol front is $1200 and another $500 for fitting.
Thats what its going to cost me when I get mine fitted. Hopefully before christmas. :D

Cheers Mick.

[Humpy]

For the debate on how lockers and diffs work, see this thread

http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=14273&st art=0

[hando]

I am curious to know why you would break CV's when using an auto locking front diff in reverse.. Can anyone help?

Also, I disagree with the idea that an open diff is only driving one wheel.

To clarify: If the tyres have equal traction and provide equal resistance then they will have equal drive. When going around a corner, the inner tyre puts up more resistance to rotation than the outer tyre. So the outer tyre gets more drive. That doesn't mean that the outer tyre gets all the drive. This is because the inner tyre isn't putting up so much resistance that it stops altogether. It is my opinion that locker diffs only really show their true benefits when you lift a wheel or just lose traction. Because before traction is lost, or the wheel is airborne, you will have drive to both wheels using an open diff.

[Humpy]

Breaking CVs is more likely when the front is loaded up, for example reversing up a obstacle or snatching in reverse.

A locker of any description can allow one wheel to get more drive than an open diff and therefore higher loads making breaking a CV more likely

[Adomw]

Lads

I have Air lockers front and rear and In the dunes here in Sunny Geradlton in summer even with 10psi in your tyres, occasionally you get stuck. I use the lockers as a "get out of jail free" card - what i mean is that when all forward and rearward motion has stopped because one front and one rear wheel is spinning and the chassis is grounded, I then switch on the lockers and I can back out slowly with all four wheels churning.

If I deliberately drive into these areas with the lockers in the vehicle churns along all wheels spinning at about 1 meter a minute (real slow)

If it does stop it'll usually back out - if not, out with winch and sand anchor

Also real handy when those fools with 40psi in their tyres have made alternating holes in the beach access tracks - the lockers allow me to crawl through (trycyling) slowly instead of having to hoon through (which spills my drink)

Ado

[Moylance]

Just quickly..

A few years ago the mag ran a test with several vehicles of different spec and different diff configs to see the advantages and disadvantes.
They tried to emulate each test to be the same, same revs etc.

Can't remember which mag but it was worthwhile and may answer some questions from this thread!

[mike_fnq]

Just quickly..

A few years ago the mag ran a test with several vehicles of different spec and different diff configs to see the advantages and disadvantes.
They tried to emulate each test to be the same, same revs etc.

Can't remember which mag but it was worthwhile and may answer some questions from this thread!

here's the link to my synopsis of that article including page references
http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/index.php?action=display;board=7;threadid=12123;st art=50#msg241282
yup there it is, right in this thread!! ;D

[HRT01]

So did anyone come up with a solution to the original question?.........Whatever that was! :)