Patrol Front End Flex

[DJR96]

That's fine Greg. You have achieved a good design that works very well for it's intended purpose and given the existing design restraints (Nissan) you had to start with. And beautifully fabricated and finished too. For that, well done!

Believe me, I know all about the time and effort that goes into developing something new. You only have to look at my build to see that. The coil sprung F250's use a very similar design to the Nissan, so I'm quite familiar with it. It is a good design for normal use. It's just that guys like you and I want more ability and performance from these factory designs. And I'm developing my own design solutions to overcome those compromises. No it's not simple and not likely to be something that can be made into a bolt-on kit. It was really only possible because I went all out making the whole chassis as well. I believe it will work very well, even keeping virtually the same weight on all wheels throughout the range of suspension movement. There are some other advantages too but I'll leave those details in my thread when the time comes. Although I'm sure you'll work it out....

[Patrolling Paddy]

I have 2 full tanks of fuel ~200L at the moment so tomorrow I am planning to go and test all this and get some pics.
I will document as much as I can and post the details to show what is happening.

Wish me luck. Hopefully with the fuel on board it will allow the flex in the front.

PP

[Patrolling Paddy]

Here are some pics of the front shock mount heights from todays effort.

At rest the Front shock mount height is 570mm, Extended is 655mm and compressed is 450mm.
I don't believe that it was maxed out at either compression or extension but it was the best I could get at the beach and the rocks.
Rear at the shock is 545mm @ rest, 725mm extended and 490mm compressed.
Other measurements were front wheel travel of 445mm (17.5") and rear wheel travel of 525mm (20.7").
Front bump (@ wheel) of 215mm, droop of 230mm, Rear bump of 185mm, droop of 340mm.

[Patrolling Paddy]

Here are a couple more from today to show the Patrol itself from afar, and yes that is the spring sitting front of the big girl. The front shocks were out and the front right bump stop hasn't been in for a while now ( I must get aroung to fixing that one day) wich allowed the spring to come free.

[Patrolling Paddy]

And this is me standing at the back, now I'm not real tall but at about 5'9" it gives you some idea about how high it really is.
I still couldn't get the front corner to lift off the deck even with the 200L of fuel in the back, time to start getting serious with it now.

PP

[Patrolling Paddy]

DGR01
I have had a bit of a crack at trying to work out the spring rate for my ute and I think I have lost the plot and gone mad.
Using the calculator on the 'Pirate' site see's me using very light springs and it is trying to give 2 different spring rates for the initial and main springs (coil overs) this is obviously not relevent to my setup but it definately has me lost now.
With the different spring offset (wheel center to spring center) front and rear it makes it hard for me to calculate.
The rate required to hold the truck up is really irrelivant to the offset as in a rested position it really won't matter, however when the flex starts happening the rate required to balance the front and rear will be greatly affected by the offset. Two different rates will be required front to rear to allow for the difference in weight obviously but then with the difference in the springs offset this will change these rates again.
Now will a dual rate spring help me in this situation? Am I better off trying to get a tall free length softer spring that with the weight of the ute on it will give me the same ride height as I have now? I am thinking about looking at a set of around 290lb for the front and leaving the rear as is due to the fact that it is flexing well now.

Am I getting carried away with it and looking too deep and should just leave it to the guru's? Am I even on the right track?

Does anyone know of a spring that would sit at about the same as a toughdog 6" when the weight of a Patrol is sitting on it but has a spring rate of around 290lb.

I think my brain is going to explode

Cheers

PP

[turbo gu]

We fitted some superior arms into the front of a mates GQ recently and it has changed the car. It has had a wild shimmy in it since my mate lifted it(about 2 years) it had everything in the front end rebuilt or replaced including a GU steering box and front diff and was always there but as soon as the arms went in what a change! For a big lifted GQ(6/7inch) it drives sensationally.
Offroad it never had any sort of front end flex, with the arms in it easily maxed out the tough dogs. We reversed it up a rock with the r/h/r and got the r/h/f tyre off the ground and the l/h/f tucked up into the wheel arch and that was with heavy duty dobinson coils.
My mate can't wait till some long shocks and soft coils go in it so he can use the arms properly.

Once i've sorted out my ute i will definately fit up a set to it.

[Patrolling Paddy]

That's excellent 'turbo gu'. What sort of rig is your mates, a ute, wagon or something in between? With the Dobinson springs of 6-7" what is the '@ rest' distance of the front shock mounts (fromt the top side of the bottom mount to the bottom side of the top mount? What sort of weight does he have in/on it and is it fairly well balanced front to rear?
Any chance of some pics???
Thanks for the input so far and please tell/show me as much as you can.

Cheers

PP

[DGR01]

Originally Posted by Patrolling Paddy

DGR01
I have had a bit of a crack at trying to work out the spring rate for my ute and I think I have lost the plot and gone mad.
Using the calculator on the 'Pirate' site see's me using very light springs and it is trying to give 2 different spring rates for the initial and main springs (coil overs) this is obviously not relevent to my setup but it definately has me lost now.
With the different spring offset (wheel center to spring center) front and rear it makes it hard for me to calculate.
The rate required to hold the truck up is really irrelivant to the offset as in a rested position it really won't matter, however when the flex starts happening the rate required to balance the front and rear will be greatly affected by the offset. Two different rates will be required front to rear to allow for the difference in weight obviously but then with the difference in the springs offset this will change these rates again.
Now will a dual rate spring help me in this situation? Am I better off trying to get a tall free length softer spring that with the weight of the ute on it will give me the same ride height as I have now? I am thinking about looking at a set of around 290lb for the front and leaving the rear as is due to the fact that it is flexing well now.

Am I getting carried away with it and looking too deep and should just leave it to the guru's? Am I even on the right track?

Does anyone know of a spring that would sit at about the same as a toughdog 6" when the weight of a Patrol is sitting on it but has a spring rate of around 290lb.

I think my brain is going to explode

Cheers

PP

PP, that is like music to my ears!! having someone use their brain and do research is awesome. You are pretty correct about the 290lb approx single rate, these are the sort of figures i get. I am waiting for a set of 'test' shocks to be sent from the US so i can finish my mounts for nissans. These will be based on a threaded body coil-over 2.5" shock. With the new mounting system i have developed, you will only ever have to buy 1 pair of front shocks ever again!!! the mounting system is fully adjustable and allows the user to setup the shock to suit any height lift. The shocks will be available in 12,14,16,18" travel so when used with the new arms you should never have limited travel. (from initial testing - we found we can fit 14"+ travel shocks on anything with 3" lift, and 12" travel on near stock height trucks).
Any info, measurements or feedback is greatly appreciated, and if it relates to any design changes that will get better results that would be awesome. I love designing this sort of stuff!! I designed a NEW set of drive hub adapters for 'Nissan comp trucks' last night to stop them blowing up locking hubs. (couldn't help myself, i love a challenge).

keep up the good work, and if i find a 'special' set of springs i will let you know.


TURBO GU, thats awesome to hear!!! i am glad he is happy. I really only get feedback from the comp guys so to hear that is great. Any photos? I would love to do a proper TECH article on some trucks with these setups so if you find any pics that would be awesome!!

cheers - Greg

[turbo gu]

PP, my mates truck is a petrol auto gq wagon. Its pretty light. only one battery, steel bar and winch and outback roller drawers.i'll get a couple of photos and measurements later this week.
DGR01 my mate loves them. Almost too much. LOL. great product.

[Patrolling Paddy]

Cheers for the replies guys.

DGR01 are these new shocks you are building going to be like a normal coil over or are they going to bolt into existing braketry with a mounting adapter? Are they a full bolt in kit?


Front - Rest - Ext - Comp - Bump - Droop - Travel
Shock - 570 - 655 - 450 - 120 - 85 - 205
Wheel - 550 - 780 - 335 - 215 - 230 - 445

Rear - Rest - Ext - Comp - Bump - Droop - Travel
Shock - 545 - 725 - 490 - 55 - 180 - 235
Wheel - 485 - 825 - 300 - 185 - 340 - 525

Here are the figures I took the other day, if that is what you are after.


turbo gu
cheers for the effort and I can't wait to have a look at what your mates is doing.

Cheers

PP

[turbo gu]

Here is some photos of my mates truck.it Has tough dogs front and rear to suit 6 inch lift with 6/7inch dobinson springs that are fairly heavy duty. So there is room for improvement with softer coils and longer shocks

[Stampy]

This is a good thread! This is the essence of what forums are/should be, about (and full of good info if I ever swap to a Nissan )

[DGR01]

Originally Posted by Patrolling Paddy

Cheers for the replies guys.

DGR01 are these new shocks you are building going to be like a normal coil over or are they going to bolt into existing braketry with a mounting adapter? Are they a full bolt in kit?


Front - Rest - Ext - Comp - Bump - Droop - Travel
Shock - 570 - 655 - 450 - 120 - 85 - 205
Wheel - 550 - 780 - 335 - 215 - 230 - 445

Rear - Rest - Ext - Comp - Bump - Droop - Travel
Shock - 545 - 725 - 490 - 55 - 180 - 235
Wheel - 485 - 825 - 300 - 185 - 340 - 525

Here are the figures I took the other day, if that is what you are after.


turbo gu
cheers for the effort and I can't wait to have a look at what your mates is doing.

Cheers

PP

PP, thanks very much for the info. Its great!! we got very similar measurements on some of the initial test we did, so it is great to see it in practice.

As for the new shocks, the mounting system bolt directly onto the std position, and all i can say is its a new way of looking at an old problem (hint) we have submitted for patent and are waiting to hear back. Its a very simple system that utilises the infinate adjustability of the threaded body shocks.
It has been great fun developing new stuff for the nissans, as no-one has really put any brains into GOOD bits for them that actually make them perform better. I am really lucky cus' my 2 test rigs are some of the best trucks in the country, 1 - the Superior Eng GQ: which is mega tuff, superflex arms, long arm rear, 18" SAW shocks, 40" comp spec trepadores, chromo cv's, twin stick transfer, rear disconnect, 340hp nitrous fed TB42.


2 - Robbie marshals winch truck: 360hp TD42, chromo cv's 37" comp spec trepadores, superflex arms, long arm rear, ......here is a cool vid of the last SSS winch challenge. Quite a few guys running the arms. there is some great shots of robbie marshals (AVA gq ute) doing the hill drags. it really shows how well it hooks up! the truck just plants the tires and goes . . . . . (5m07 to 5m30 in)

YouTube - SSS WINCH CHALLENGE HIGHLIGHTS

Both trucks have won just about everything they have entered since the new suspension setups went in.
(i sound like a proud dad).

I luv the challenge of getting the nissan gear up to spec, the toyota boys have everything available for them. I spent 3hr last night with my machinist going through my drawing on the new CNC'd billet steel locking hubs as the comp guys are blowing them to bits all the time!

cheer guys thanks for the response, if there are any other bits or designs that might help, let me know?

[Patrolling Paddy]

Sounds like a good thing DGR01, how soon before you might be looking at releasing the new coil overs?
I haven't blown a free wheel hub YET but I'm sure it'll happen one day.

turbo gu, cheers for the pics. It seems his is setup a bit different to mine but his body seems to be alot more balanced then what mine is. What was the extended and compressed shock length?

Cheers

PP

[sudso]

Hey PP when you flex your front LH down and your front RH up do your tie rod ends on the drag link bind up and stop further flex?
Remembering that the drag link is already on a crook old angle at ride height with the lift and the rod ends are already through some of their pivot range.

[Patrolling Paddy]

sudso
At this stage I have been unable to find a rock(ramp) suitable to be able to flex the front left down and right up, well to that height anyway. I would imagine that it would/could be an issue though.
I think I remember reading something about a 'high steer' for a Patrol that should eliminate this but I need to search again to see if I can find it.

Cheers

PP

[sudso]

Originally Posted by Patrolling Paddy

sudso
At this stage I have been unable to find a rock(ramp) suitable to be able to flex the front left down and right up, well to that height anyway. I would imagine that it would/could be an issue though.
I think I remember reading something about a 'high steer' for a Patrol that should eliminate this but I need to search again to see if I can find it.

Cheers

PP

Yeah I had some input in that thread from memory.
Check out Snake Racings website, they have a pic of the "Patrol High Steer" there but its for a raised leaf front Patrol. It could be adapted for a coil front Patrol but still wouldn't do anything for the rod end at the pitman arm.
Ive flexed mine up the way as above and the rod ends do look to be at their max pivot with LH down and RH up restricting more flex but cant really tell exactly.
I have a solution but the hard part is finding the right rod ends.

[Patrolling Paddy]

I am still waiting to hear back about springs and still waiting for my shocks to turn up.
The Superflex arms came fitted with std rubber bushes so I might look at slotted bushes to help with the initial flex.
I also have my old rear springs that I think may be heavier (part # tag is missing so I'll have to measure the wire) then what is in it now so I might try putting these back in and see if that helps balance it up a bit too.

I will document everything I can and post away.

AAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG too many options not enough time/money to try them all.

Wish me luck

PP

[defmec]

i know that rovers already have better flex than a datto but when are ya gunna make a set for rovers as they wouldn't be much different than Nissan arms .about the same length and there placement is the same