Diesel/Gas

[midi73]

I know it has been done a fair bit, but I want to know peoples opinions of the different setups.

You have dieselgas who claim that theres is best because it is controlled by computer so it can be tuned perfect and wont overgas.

You have D-gas who say theres is the best because it comes from the tank as a liquid not as a vapour (better for 4wding aparently) it is then vapourized in a box. Their other claim is that it is injected after the turbo so doesnt cause turbo damage etc.

You have torquegas who have built there own as well. They claim they are the leaders and supply a lot of Australia with componants. There system also goes through the turbo which helps it vapourize, they dont reckon it is a problem going through the turbo. Theres is not computerized, but they claim it is a very good setup. They claim that computer ones can overfuel and that theres is garunteed not to. One advantage with theirs is that it is $2900 fitted, which is not a bad price in my books.
Can I have peoples opinions and experiances with these different setups and companys.
Cheers
Ps. I dont mean any disrespect to any one or company, I just want some unbiased opinions and experiances. Everyone says theres is best I want others to say.
Cheers.

[dirtygq]

I like the computer programmed system myself ,that why you can fine tune it to suit your needs. Talk to peter at redlands 4wd they are experts on diesel fumigation.
I am a bit hesitant because i don't want a gas tank in the rear of my patrol(think it is prone to damage ?)

[midi73]

I like the computer programmed system myself ,that why you can fine tune it to suit your needs. Talk to peter at redlands 4wd they are experts on diesel fumigation.
I am a bit hesitant because i don't want a gas tank in the rear of my patrol(think it is prone to damage ?)
Lol, cops a flogging at the back hey. Thanks for the reply. What's the number for Redlands?
Cheers.

[Eco-Gas]

MIDI, torquegas don't supply us ;)

We also have a few other reasons why when pitted against the others we come out fairing very well.

Also, consider that Toll are trialling the D-Gas kit ... not anyone elses. EDIT: (THEY ARE STILL USING AN OLD SYSTEM FROM A PREVIOUS TRIAL WHICH WAS DRAWN THROUGH THE TURBO)

A recent drag truck (yep and 1/4 drag truck came to us to get our kit because he didn't want a flammible gas going through his turbo. He came to us.

Just quietly, I think DGA's kit should also be around the $2900 installed because they too make a cheaper system (apparently) ... ie pre turbo fumigation.

IMHO :thumb:

[midi73]

MIDI, torquegas don't supply us ;)

We also have a few other reasons why when pitted against the others we come out fairing very well.

Also, consider that Toll are trialling the D-Gas kit ... not anyone elses.

A recent drag truck (yep and 1/4 drag truck came to us to get our kit because he didn't want a flammible gas going through his turbo. He came to us.

Just quietly, I thing DGA's kit should also be around the $2900 installed because they too make a cheaper system (apparently) ... ie pre turbo fumigation and vapour draw.

IMHO :thumb:
Mate, I am leaning towards your system to be quite honest, just a fair bit to come up with at present. I have rung you guys and had a chat a little while back. Just getting honest feedback from non company people.
I am also facing the problem that I will be turboing at a later date (cant afford it at present) so would need to rebuy the main part of your kit once I have turboed. The other thing is that torquegas is very close to me here on the sunny coast, but to be quite honest I dont really like them and have heard bad reports over the years, but because of the price I was just looking for opinions. (updated ones)
One way I thought of doing your kit was to buy it from you now $2000, then the rebate can pay it back, then buy the rest of the stuff I need to finish it off bit by bit. once I have it all installed (myself) I could then take it and get it certified. How much would the rest of the gear I need, cost, above the 2 grand.
Cheers

[midi73]

Mate, I am leaning towards your system to be quite honest, just a fair bit to come up with at present. I have rung you guys and had a chat a little while back. Just getting honest feedback from non company people.
I am also facing the problem that I will be turboing at a later date (cant afford it at present) so would need to rebuy the main part of your kit once I have turboed. The other thing is that torquegas is very close to me here on the sunny coast, but to be quite honest I dont really like them and have heard bad reports over the years, but because of the price I was just looking for opinions. (updated ones)
One way I thought of doing your kit was to buy it from you now $2000, then the rebate can pay it back, then buy the rest of the stuff I need to finish it off bit by bit. once I have it all installed (myself) I could then take it and get it certified. How much would the rest of the gear I need, cost, above the 2 grand.
Cheers
bump

[Eco-Gas]

Sorry Midi, I didn't notice this post.

If you buy the D-Gas system ($2200) and you later STILL think to add turbo I will get your kit working on the new turbo'd engine for only $500. You will still need to have it installed but you would need to do this anyway.

So that means, buy the complete non turbo under bonnet kit and within, say 24 months, if you still think you need a turbo fitted, (give me a chance to quote on this BTW) I will supply all the bits and pieces to make your old D-Gas unit work on the turbo for $500. Whatever parts it needs parts, I will provide them all.
Either way, I will guarantee your rig to be fitted with a working D-Gas kit

This is the confidence I have it the unit and your complete satisfaction of it.

Sound OK to you???



Mate, I am leaning towards your system to be quite honest, just a fair bit to come up with at present. I have rung you guys and had a chat a little while back. Just getting honest feedback from non company people.
I am also facing the problem that I will be turboing at a later date (cant afford it at present) so would need to rebuy the main part of your kit once I have turboed. The other thing is that torquegas is very close to me here on the sunny coast, but to be quite honest I dont really like them and have heard bad reports over the years, but because of the price I was just looking for opinions. (updated ones)
One way I thought of doing your kit was to buy it from you now $2000, then the rebate can pay it back, then buy the rest of the stuff I need to finish it off bit by bit. once I have it all installed (myself) I could then take it and get it certified. How much would the rest of the gear I need, cost, above the 2 grand.
Cheers

[midi73]

Sorry Midi, I didn't notice this post.

If you buy the D-Gas system ($2200) and you later STILL think to add turbo I will get your kit working on the new turbo'd engine for only $500. You will still need to have it installed but you would need to do this anyway.

So that means, buy the complete non turbo under bonnet kit and within, say 24 months, if you still think you need a turbo fitted, (give me a chance to quote on this BTW) I will supply all the bits and pieces to make your old D-Gas unit work on the turbo for $500. Whatever parts it needs parts, I will provide them all.
Either way, I will guarantee your rig to be fitted with a working D-Gas kit

This is the confidence I have it the unit and your complete satisfaction of it.

Sound OK to you???
Yep sounds good. Will talk to the boss (wife) about it. By the way, it could give me 150% more power, but I will still be putting a turbo on it. Can never have to much power.
Cheers

[Pmc]

D-Gas Diesel Fumigation system

I got the D-Gas Diesel Fumigation system installed this week.

The pick up is phenomenal and the job looks really good.

On the road the performace is great the pickup is like nothing and it will happily drag and / or fish tail the back at the lights now!! (not that i would do anything like that!!)

dyno run results

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r15/pmcwa/Patrol%20Accessories/Dynod-gas.jpg

engine bay mods.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r15/pmcwa/Patrol%20Accessories/23112007747.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r15/pmcwa/Patrol%20Accessories/23112007750.jpg

[b]Gas tank – new full 3inch exhaust
the tanks hangs a bit but looks worse in the photo

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r15/pmcwa/Patrol%20Accessories/251120071008.jpg

[midi73]

Thanks for that PMC. Keep us informed on figures etc.

[Eco-Gas]

150% more power???

Crickey you dont ask for much do you?

;)


Well actually no you cannot acheive 150% more as the motor will not take this sort of power for long.

Up to 30 is considered max. Dont forget, if you still go with your turbo install, it too will be responsible for adding extra power.

Cheers

RR


Yep sounds good. Will talk to the boss (wife) about it. By the way, it could give me 150% more power, but I will still be putting a turbo on it. Can never have to much power.
Cheers

[Eco-Gas]

Glad you like it PMC.

yep the performance boost is really something to experience yourself as many dont realise how much even a 10% increase in power is.

You have now 20% AFTER the exhaust mod


BTW,

"not that I would do anything like that!!!"

giggle ;)





D-Gas Diesel Fumigation system

I got the D-Gas Diesel Fumigation system installed this week.

The pick up is phenomenal and the job looks really good.

On the road the performace is great the pickup is like nothing and it will happily drag and / or fish tail the back at the lights now!! (not that i would do anything like that!!)

[midi73]

150% more power???

Crickey you dont ask for much do you?

;)


Well actually no you cannot acheive 150% more as the motor will not take this sort of power for long.

Up to 30 is considered max. Dont forget, if you still go with your turbo install, it too will be responsible for adding extra power.

Cheers

RR

I know that. The whole point being, its not, if, I turbo, it is when. I will be turboing regardless.
Cheers

[Eco-Gas]

OK, got you.

Let me know if/when I can help.

Cheers

[midi73]

OK, got you.

Let me know if/when I can help.

Cheers
Ok no worries, will do. Sooner rather than later I hope, just have to drag together the funds.

[lowgear]

PMC who did yor d gas install, and were you happy with them,

Cheers

[Pmc]

D-Gas Diesel-LPG Enhancement Systems (http://www.d-gas.com.au) in Malaga WA.

talk to justin he knows his stuff

im very very happy with the quality of the work and the final out come .

im annoyed i didn't do it eariler!!

out of the 3 diesel gas places in perth this is the only one that is a post turbo and the guy there was happy to ltell me about it and he knoew his stuff unlike the other 2 places!!

[Patrolling Paddy]

out of the 3 diesel gas places in perth this is the only one that is a post turbo and the guy there was happy to ltell me about it and he knoew his stuff unlike the other 2 places!!

I'm glad to hear that your happy with you system.

Surely there is more than 3 dieselGas places in Perth! I don't know who you spoke to and where they were from but the guys that did mine were excellent and also really knew thier stuff. I couldn't be happier with the quality if work and aftersales help from these guys. They have retuned mine free and fit me in at the drop of a hat to do it, any question I asked (and there were a few) were answered thoroughly and weren't answered like a sales pitch.

I'm not trying to say 'ine is better than yours' kind of thing but I strongly believe that it just a matter of speaking to the RIGHT person and not just the first one that answers the phone.

I run the DGA system and I am very happy with it.

Cheers

PP

[Eco-Gas]

Good to hear.

Justin is definately a no BS type of guy. He doesn't suffer studipity very well. ... I could tell you some stories :D








D-Gas Diesel-LPG Enhancement Systems (http://www.d-gas.com.au) in Malaga WA.

talk to justin he knows his stuff

im very very happy with the quality of the work and the final out come .

im annoyed i didn't do it eariler!!

out of the 3 diesel gas places in perth this is the only one that is a post turbo and the guy there was happy to ltell me about it and he knoew his stuff unlike the other 2 places!!

[350_GQ]

Hey guys,

I know a person working for the LPG Authority in Australia who has told me that the Toll trucks we're grounded.

LPG going through the Turbo is dangerous for a few reasons, but none that anyone will tell you.... I work for a mining company and I do OH&S inspections and approvals for things like this and I have been presented with most systems available on the market and I can tell you I won't be using any LPG system on ANY diesel engine in any mining application. Neither will any other company.

LPG over diesels has been going on for a while, it's not new. the biggest problem you have is finding someone who actually knows what they're doing.

My advice:
ANYone can do an LPG instalation.
With enough research you can find out anything about anything OR anyone.

No, I won't recommend anyone because it leaves me open to be hassled about it. All i will say is:

Modifications outside the OEM parameters is dangererous. It is frowned upon by authoroties for a reason. Not because they're stick in the muds, not because they're "old and just don't know" but because the Laws in this country are pretty LAX.
Do what you want, but remember: Anyone will tell you anything to sell you something.:thumb:

[Shonky]

LPG going through the Turbo is dangerous for a few reasons, but none that anyone will tell you....

Care to enlighten us? If LPG through the turbo is as dangerous as you say, it would be nice to hear what the reasons are, rather than hearing sales speel.

[350_GQ]

Care to enlighten us? If LPG through the turbo is as dangerous as you say, it would be nice to hear what the reasons are, rather than hearing sales speel.

Sure, how long do you keep you car for?
Why are diesels such good engines?

Cause with correct maintenance they last.
Intercoolers don't last very long.

[Eco-Gas]

Hey guys,

I know a person working for the LPG Authority in Australia who has told me that the Toll trucks we're grounded.

LPG going through the Turbo is dangerous for a few reasons,

Can I have this guys number? I would love to chat with him.

If true, WHY are they grounded? In any case, glad their not our System. Our System DOES NOT fumigate the turbo.

[Pmc]

Glad mines not a through turbo model go D-gas!!

[Eco-Gas]

Neither will any other company.



Tell that to the many we have done. It will be news to them! :)

Why would you be failing LPG Systems? The reason the gas on diesel is considered in mining is that the reduced emission (including NOx) was beneficial for miners

Please explain

RGDS
RR

[peteinoz]

D-Gas Diesel Fumigation system

I got the D-Gas Diesel Fumigation system installed this week.

The pick up is phenomenal and the job looks really good.

On the road the performace is great the pickup is like nothing and it will happily drag and / or fish tail the back at the lights now!! (not that i would do anything like that!!)

dyno run results



engine bay mods.



[b]Gas tank – new full 3inch exhaust
the tanks hangs a bit but looks worse in the photo

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r15/pmcwa/Patrol%20Accessories/251120071008.jpg


Hey

what size tank is that?

hard to tell with that photo?

thanks

pete

[peteinoz]

Tell that to the many we have done. It will be news to them! :)

Why would you be failing LPG Systems? The reason the gas on diesel is considered in mining is that the reduced emission (including NOx) was beneficial for miners

Please explain

RGDS
RR

Hey RR.

have you fitted gas to an X5 BMW diesel?

and rough install cost? the places Ive phoned to date have not done one yet.

cheers

pete

[Eco-Gas]

Hey RR.

have you fitted gas to an X5 BMW diesel?

and rough install cost? the places Ive phoned to date have not done one yet.

cheers

pete

Just last week an installer ran up for a kit on one. The owner is a Mr Ho from Sydney and 2x kits went to the Philippines last year

Costs are the same (for a change) as fitting to a Landcruiser, Patrol or Rodeo. $4200 plus any exhaust work

[physh]

What warranty does the DGAS system provide?
My vehicle is a HZJ105R GXL still under Factory warranty.

Which should I install first, the turbo or DGAS? If I get the DGAS can I still just install a turbo "over the top of it" so to speak?

(looking at a Denco water-to-air-intercooled turbo kit)

[DGR01]

Hey Eco-Gas,
what is the recommended injection ratio maximum for a N/A td42 (~2%??).
also i want to setup a gas injection system, in similar fashion to a N2O kit. Only injected at full throttle!! as the power is not required all the time, only when taking off with the trailer on the back.

[Eco-Gas]

What warranty does the DGAS system provide?
My vehicle is a HZJ105R GXL still under Factory warranty.

Which should I install first, the turbo or DGAS? If I get the DGAS can I still just install a turbo "over the top of it" so to speak?

(looking at a Denco water-to-air-intercooled turbo kit)

Will everybody kill me for advising to do the Gas FIRST???

Reason for this is that the gas injection will give you good power and economy and you will probably stop there!

The turbo, whilst giving you good power, will cost you MORE in running costs because just putting in extra air wont benefit at all. You need to add more diesel to provide the right ration again ... and that means extra diesel costs.

The gas makes whats ALREADY being injected burn better ... thus extra power / economy. Besides this the government will give you a pat on the head with a $2000 kicker. That halves the cost right there.

If you put the non turbo kit on you can fit the turbo on at a later stage ... we will just have the re jet it. A 10 minute job.

INTERCOOLER = gas injection acts as an intercooler (how much as a matter of interest is the turbo kit costing???)

WARRANTY = 2 years

OEM WARRANTY will only be affected if the installer does not install correctly.

TO DATE, WE HAVE NOT DAMAGED, STUFFED, ROOTED, BROKEN ANY ENGINES OR TURBOS ETC.

One day someone WILL have a bearing fail with the gas system and blame it on the system even though it was on the way out ... but even this has not happened YET. Just being honest here.

EXPLANATION. of course we do not inspect engine bearings BEFORE an install so NO ONE knows if the bearing was on the way out or not. 1HZ were known even to Toyota as spinning bearing so we may have to defend this one day. Nevertheless, as mentioned we have a clean slate ... even on every truck we have every fitted.

BTW, toll were not grounded by any authority or body. They grounded the trucks themselves as one of our competitors tried to torpedo our involvement with Toll and take the business away. They sent a 2 year old OPENED D-GAS control box to the LPG association (not THE Authorty) and told them the kit was leaking.

Since the old box was opened we cannot ever know WHO tampered with it but we have our suspicions.

Funny enough, that same LPG Association has asked us to join the associtaion!! If the kits were not certifiable I don't think they would want us to be part of their clean reputation. I think people should stop spreading porky pies.

mods is this the same guy that caused the issue last time ... sounds awfully similar.

[Eco-Gas]

Hey Eco-Gas,
what is the recommended injection ratio maximum for a N/A td42 (~2%??).
also i want to setup a gas injection system, in similar fashion to a N2O kit. Only injected at full throttle!! as the power is not required all the time, only when taking off with the trailer on the back.


DGR01, at 25% it is considered safe. Let me know how you go ... I would be happy to help

[troopymad]

got a standard 1hz in a 2001 troopy
i want to put a turbo but after reading this i have learnt

1- gas will reduce my impact on the enviroment

2- will get less of a power increase than a turbo

3- can get a rebate(WA is $3000)

can anyone really say that a gas system on a naturally asperated
1hz what power increase will i get ?????

i only want to do one or the other

if i could get 15% power increase than it would seal the deal for me
is this unreallistic????

[Eco-Gas]

got a standard 1hz in a 2001 troopy
i want to put a turbo but after reading this i have learnt

1- gas will reduce my impact on the enviroment

2- will get less of a power increase than a turbo

3- can get a rebate(WA is $3000)

can anyone really say that a gas system on a naturally asperated
1hz what power increase will i get ?????

i only want to do one or the other

if i could get 15% power increase than it would seal the deal for me
is this unreallistic????


We'll guarantee 15% OR YOUR MONEY BACK

[troopymad]

We'll guarantee 15% OR YOUR MONEY BACK


only problem is your 4000kms away
unless with can tee something up mate
pm me a quote and contact details

[Eco-Gas]

only problem is your 4000kms away
unless with can tee something up mate
pm me a quote and contact details

Troopy, PM me and I'll reply since you have your PM setting set to "OFF"

[troopymad]

this is what im taking about
real life figures on a real life truck
ive seen the PMC patrol on this forums trips in WA
it goes very well
this is an 80
17% increase
i think i will have a go at this

i think the d gas system sis the one to go for

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd200/troopymad/80SeriesnonturboCruiser17increasein.jpg

[350_GQ]

OK, well I'm interested to find out how your competitors got their hands on one of your kits, and I didn't know you've been in business more than 2 years....but my bad...and I'm sorry i didn't know this was a dedicated supprt eco-gas thread...otherwise i wouldn't have said anything.

Mods: You can check my IP....sorry if I offended, it is a public forum after all....
Also, I have a 350Ci in an old GQ....so not diesel anyway i just work with lots of them...and I started out a mechanic in the mines so I know a fair bit about them..

"If you need mates, go to the pub. If you want your car worked on, go to the people who know"

It's nothing personal eco man, I just don't like anyone in the Diesel / LPG business. Heard too many stories, met too many liars. Sorry, my opinion in a public forum...

[Eco-Gas]

That's fine that you have an opinion but I find it strange that you bag me/us without even having met me or know much about us.

I might be a nice guy! :)

Regarding how I know who it was ... I was told.

Our customers are are a loyal bunch and large trucking fleets do their due diligence on companies like us before they commit their fleets. After all, in many peoples opinion, they have LOTS more to lose than someone with a 4WD ... wouldn't you agree?

This doesn't mean we the 4WD owner isn't important to us.

Cheers

RR

PS. It's not "eco man", just Rob. ;)



OK, well I'm interested to find out how your competitors got their hands on one of your kits, and I didn't know you've been in business more than 2 years....but my bad...and I'm sorry i didn't know this was a dedicated supprt eco-gas thread...otherwise i wouldn't have said anything.

Mods: You can check my IP....sorry if I offended, it is a public forum after all....
Also, I have a 350Ci in an old GQ....so not diesel anyway i just work with lots of them...and I started out a mechanic in the mines so I know a fair bit about them..

"If you need mates, go to the pub. If you want your car worked on, go to the people who know"

It's nothing personal eco man, I just don't like anyone in the Diesel / LPG business. Heard too many stories, met too many liars. Sorry, my opinion in a public forum...

[350_GQ]

Awesome sales speel there "Rob".

Two reasons I don't appreciate LPG on Diesel guys.

1: They say qualified Diesel Mechanics with XX years experiance aren't good enough to understand what's going on in a Diesel Engine with LPG in it.

2: They tend to make stuff up and claim they're the greatest.

My answer to you regarding this:

1: I'd like to hear what experiance you have with a Diesel engine. Considering I have 15+ years. Are you going to tell me what my 52l twin turbo cat engine is doing with LPG. and then when I question it are you going to tell me I don't understand?
there are a few good mechanics on this site saying things to look out for and people aren't listening. So. When it blows up, blame it on the "dodgy" manufacture. Sure.

2: If you look at your own website, there are vehicles on there that not only aren't in Australia, but seem to be very similar to someone elses I've seen. I'll see if I can find the links.

So. Who's telling porkies here? Me?

I find it strange you need to come to a forum to drum up business and then tell everyone how great you are.

[Eco-Gas]

OK, you are the greatest. I am a nobody.

Happy?

... and I can give you the links if you want

[Kickars2]

350_GQ,

it funny how a mate of mine has been a diesel mechanic for 30 year's and has been in the mine's as a deisel mechanic for the last 10 year's and he had never heard of a diesel gas conversion till i got mine.
and didn't believe me about the power i've gained untill i took him for a drive and showed him the dyno read out's.
but hey 350 it must be a big conspirency if the governement and 4wd monthly are getting behind it ah.
there all just trying to rip us off, well they got my money.
but luckly the diesel mechanic will save the rest of yas.

and whats wrong with coming on here and druming up there own business when people want imformation about it? whether they choose to get it fitted by them or not is a different question.

Awesome sales speel there "Rob".

Two reasons I don't appreciate LPG on Diesel guys.

1: They say qualified Diesel Mechanics with XX years experiance aren't good enough to understand what's going on in a Diesel Engine with LPG in it.

2: They tend to make stuff up and claim they're the greatest.

My answer to you regarding this:

1: I'd like to hear what experiance you have with a Diesel engine. Considering I have 15+ years. Are you going to tell me what my 52l twin turbo cat engine is doing with LPG. and then when I question it are you going to tell me I don't understand?
there are a few good mechanics on this site saying things to look out for and people aren't listening. So. When it blows up, blame it on the "dodgy" manufacture. Sure.

2: If you look at your own website, there are vehicles on there that not only aren't in Australia, but seem to be very similar to someone elses I've seen. I'll see if I can find the links.

So. Who's telling porkies here? Me?

I find it strange you need to come to a forum to drum up business and then tell everyone how great you are.

[350_GQ]

Sorry you misread my post, i didn't say it didn't work.
I don't like it, but that's just my opionion.

It's easy to blame an ignorant diesel mech to side step the real issues.

Trucks Fitted (http://www.eco-gas.com.au/Trucks_Fitted_with_D-Gas.aspx)

GreenPower Bi-Fuels (http://www.gpbf.co.uk/news.htm)

I just don't like people claiming work for their own.

[350_GQ]

it is good isn't it?
A little looking at any company will reveal anything. and i urge everyone to investigate any company doing work for them. they are your babies, no-one will look after it like you will.

[Eco-Gas]

You are a dill. How about you asking questions B4 you claim to know all.

As of November last year Colin Gray of Green Power gave approval for us to show these pics on our site. From that time, Colin and I were discussing the potential interest from them of our system

Again you show your ignorance 350





it is good isn't it?
A little looking at any company will reveal anything. and i urge everyone to investigate any company doing work for them. they are your babies, no-one will look after it like you will.

[350_GQ]

You are a dill. How about you asking questions B4 you claim to know all.

As of November last year Colin Gray of Green Power gave approval for us to show these pics on our site. From that time, Colin and I were discussing the potential interest from them of our system

Again you show your ignorance 350

Sorry, it must be my ignorance shining through:

"MAN Trucks Fitted with D-GAS"
Seems to be a little misleading if i may.

If you have travelled to the UK and installed on that truck and are getting the savings your claiming then i take it all back. otherwise you should change your website to state: "Trucks we'd like to install on"
Considering you have a picture of it installed. Which seems to be a 12.7 MBE if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong.

[350_GQ]

Sorry forum members, it's turned into a slinging match and i will happily take it to PM.
Feel free Rob.

[Eco-Gas]

For those that are interested D-GAS now have a new record holder of the biggest savings of diesel

35% from Warren in QLD. He has a Freightliner with a C12 Cat engine. Warren pulls a B-double around our great country

A close 2nd is a Stering with a Merc/Detroit engine with 30% savings.

Our 15% fuel savings gaurantee stands. If we dont achieve a 15% fuel savings we will give you back your $$$.

:)

[MartinR]

Hi Rob

I own a D40 Navara , I spoke with Dave this arvo and he said that he didnt know if you had done a D40 yet, have you ?

do you have any dyno print outs for it?

If I was to fit a kit to my Navara and should it not measure up you, would you refund the price of the kit???
Does this also apply if the kit is not fitted by you guys???

snip >>>In fact, we guarantee that you will be pleased with the install or your money back … and, to date, no one has asked for their money back. This speaks highly for the product. We even provide a guarantee of a minimum fuel saving of 15% or your money back. <<<<

Is the gas injector is installed before the throttle body's butterfly, on the intercooler side?


snip>>>Most “chips” in fact will allow you to turn down the diesel pumps by a significant amount thereby saving you even more fuel.

I use a Steinbauer module at the moment to give me the extra power and torque I need for work, would I have any need for it after the D-Gas is fitted???

Thanks Martin
Director Wisemans Ferry Garage PL
0429 131 111

[Eco-Gas]

Hi Martin

Yes, we still stand behind the product ... no matter who installs it.

We have not fitted to a D40 to my knowledge, however please remember we have almost 100 fitters around the country so what they have done I do not know.

I can tell you that we installed to a 2008 Hilux (with 800kms) on the clock and it when great. Owner was pleased such a modern engine could be improved.

Regarding the performance module you have, yes aall is OK there however with many "chips" the extra diesel they introduce to the motor does not help the cause when fitting gas. ie too much fuel in the combustion chamber causing overfuelling conditions (black smoke)

Once the diesel is returned to standard delivery quantites (by reprogramming the chip or removing it altogether) the black smoke disappears.

Since LPG is cheaper the it is best to de-rate the diesel rather than reducing the lpg charge.

At the end of the day, the chip served it's purpose but now is no longer necessary as the LPG injection does what the chips do, plus give you a much more efficient motor and better engine life.

Hope this helps

Cheers
RR






Hi Rob

I own a D40 Navara , I spoke with Dave this arvo and he said that he didnt know if you had done a D40 yet, have you ?

do you have any dyno print outs for it?

If I was to fit a kit to my Navara and should it not measure up you, would you refund the price of the kit???
Does this also apply if the kit is not fitted by you guys???

snip >>>In fact, we guarantee that you will be pleased with the install or your money back … and, to date, no one has asked for their money back. This speaks highly for the product. We even provide a guarantee of a minimum fuel saving of 15% or your money back. <<<<

Is the gas injector is installed before the throttle body's butterfly, on the intercooler side?


snip>>>Most “chips” in fact will allow you to turn down the diesel pumps by a significant amount thereby saving you even more fuel.

I use a Steinbauer module at the moment to give me the extra power and torque I need for work, would I have any need for it after the D-Gas is fitted???

Thanks Martin
Director Wisemans Ferry Garage PL
0429 131 111

[MartinR]

Thanks for that Rob
I will be in touch with either you or David
thanks Martin

[Eco-Gas]

No worries Martin

BTW when I said above "...no matter who installs it" I obviously meant no matter which licensed LPG fitter installs it.

If some :zzz: installed it then of course we cannot be held responsible. :thumb:

Cheers

RR

[thorne]

Hey guys,

I know a person working for the LPG Authority in Australia who has told me that the Toll trucks we're grounded.

LPG going through the Turbo is dangerous for a few reasons, but none that anyone will tell you.... I work for a mining company and I do OH&S inspections and approvals for things like this and I have been presented with most systems available on the market and I can tell you I won't be using any LPG system on ANY diesel engine in any mining application. Neither will any other company.


I too have seen almost every system on the market but for legal reasons. As a result I went and bought a system for my own 4WD and it's been the best money I ever spent.

Please explain your logic of why putting gas before the turbo is dangerous. My research actually showed the exact opposite.

Firstly the explosive mixture of LPG in air is approx 12%. The mix of LPG in air used by ALL diesel/LPG systems is below 1%. 1% of LPG in air is not even flammable let alone explosive but 1% LPG in air will cause pre ignation in the engine cause it to knock and damage the engine. Your engine has blown up long long before 12% is reached.

So if the gas mix isn't flammable let alone explosive how is it dangerous?

Now post turbo is a whole different kettle of fish. If you take a cigarette and put it after a fan you will see a clear stream of smoke. If you put it before the fan the smoke is mixed evenly by the fan.

What streaming gas means is that some cylinders will be getting more gas than other cylinders. This means you could be getting more than 1% gas in one or two cylinders causing it to knock damaging your engine. The other cylinders won't be getting enough so no fuel savings.

For those of you who think the gas must be higher than 1% I can go on a step by step explination of the physics of the diesel engine or you can get a gas bench and test it for yourself.


LPG over diesels has been going on for a while, it's not new. the biggest problem you have is finding someone who actually knows what they're doing.


True. The concept of diesel fumigation dates back to Rudoph Diesel's patent in 1901. Commercially available systems have been on the market for more than 40 years. Whats new is the new electronic control system giving more control and faster response times and more power and fuel savings.

If nothing changed I'd have two logs on a frame kicked along Flintstone style.



My advice:
ANYone can do an LPG instalation.
With enough research you can find out anything about anything OR anyone.

No, I won't recommend anyone because it leaves me open to be hassled about it. All i will say is:

Modifications outside the OEM parameters is dangererous. It is frowned upon by authoroties for a reason. Not because they're stick in the muds, not because they're "old and just don't know" but because the Laws in this country are pretty LAX.
Do what you want, but remember: Anyone will tell you anything to sell you something.:thumb:

Modifications outside the OEM parameters is dangererous? Quick pull my aftermarket intercooler off before it kills me.

Australia actually has the toughest safety laws in the world. Any gas conversion has to be installed to the AS1425 standard to be legal. The laws are not lax. What is lax is the policing of the laws. The installers are licenced to install but the vehicles are not checked after the work is complete. The system relies on the fact that should something go wrong, the installer could face jail time if they bodgyed the job.

Now saying that come rego time you can also run into problem and get defected if it not done properly.

No matter what the system is, if the installer is bad, the system won't work. The key is research. Find a good system and find a good installer. You won't save money with a cheap system or a cheap installer.

Now on the Australian market there are three general types of diesel/LPG systems.

1: The jet system. A jet system uses a piece of metal with a hole in it to control gas flow. If you want more gas you screw a peice in with a bigger hole in it and vice versa. There is no fine control of gas flow. Examples of this system is D-Gas, Dieselgas Australia, Torquegas, Eco-Shot, Peak3 and many others. This is the cheapist and most common system on the market.

2: The stepper motor. The Stepper motor system uses a varible motor that opens a valve in a series of steps. For more gas you open it up more and vise versa. The downside is the response time. From fully open to fully closed can take up to 15 to 20 seconds. Not good for sudden accelleration or braking. An example of this system is GFSI and Coldfuel.

3: The needle injector. The needle injector controls the gas flow by pulsing open and closed. The response time of this system is almost instanous. Almost every last petrol/LPG system on the market use needle injectors now. The only diesel/LPG system that uses needle injectors is Gas Tek Global (AKA Sequent Systems)

The final problem is for vehicles that are 2003 and newer. All vehicles from 2003 and newer must be installed with a system that is emission certified to ADR79/00/01/02. Currently the only system on the market to pass emission certification is Gas Tek Global.

For newer vehicles it is illegal to install a non certified kit.

Thorne

[Patrolling Paddy]

1: The jet system. A jet system uses a piece of metal with a hole in it to control gas flow. If you want more gas you screw a peice in with a bigger hole in it and vice versa. There is no fine control of gas flow. Examples of this system is D-Gas, Dieselgas Australia, Torquegas, Eco-Shot, Peak3 and many others. This is the cheapist and most common system on the market.

2: The stepper motor. The Stepper motor system uses a varible motor that opens a valve in a series of steps. For more gas you open it up more and vise versa. The downside is the response time. From fully open to fully closed can take up to 15 to 20 seconds. Not good for sudden accelleration or braking. An example of this system is GFSI and Coldfuel.

3: The needle injector. The needle injector controls the gas flow by pulsing open and closed. The response time of this system is almost instanous. Almost every last petrol/LPG system on the market use needle injectors now. The only diesel/LPG system that uses needle injectors is Gas Tek Global (AKA Sequent Systems)

The final problem is for vehicles that are 2003 and newer. All vehicles from 2003 and newer must be installed with a system that is emission certified to ADR79/00/01/02. Currently the only system on the market to pass emission certification is Gas Tek Global.

For newer vehicles it is illegal to install a non certified kit.

Thorne

Thorne, it seems that you know your stuff and it is good to see someone with specifics.
I will however add that your point 2 for the stepper motor type system needs to include the Dieselgas Australia system. I have this system fitted and it uses the stepper motor in conjuction with a pre turbo venturi to deliver the gas.

PP

[dazzler66]

Hi

I am a diesel mechanic and the thing I dont understand is how does the gas replicate the flame pattern that the diesel injectors create?

cheers

[Patrolling Paddy]

The gas doesn't replicate anything, the diesel still does what it does but the gas is added to the charge air as a supplement to increase the burn and by doing so you get more bang for your buck.

PP

[thorne]

Thorne, it seems that you know your stuff and it is good to see someone with specifics.
I will however add that your point 2 for the stepper motor type system needs to include the Dieselgas Australia system. I have this system fitted and it uses the stepper motor in conjuction with a pre turbo venturi to deliver the gas.

PP


Yes and no. The old DGA system uses ventrui and stepper motor but DGA latests and greatest (so they say) GEN4 uses twin solinoids and jets which my opnion is actually a step backwards in technology.

The reason why (I think anyway) DGA went this way was so they could claim to "Inject" gas. By inject they mean putting gas in via postive pressure not inject as in needle injectors. A ventrui sucks gas in which is negative pressure and doesn't inject. Most of the systems on the market claim to inject (D-Gas, DGA, Peak3 and others) but don't use injectors.

DGA rushed out their GEN4 "injection" system as a result of Sequent Systems (Gas Tek Global) releasing their needle injector system and seriously cutting into their market. It was more of a marketing ploy instead of an improvement in technology(personal opnion).

Thorne

[thorne]

Hi

I am a diesel mechanic and the thing I dont understand is how does the gas replicate the flame pattern that the diesel injectors create?

cheers

Ok I'll go into the physics of the diesel fumigation process.

Firstly you can't simply replace diesel with LPG. Diesel has a much higher calorific value than LPG.

Now what LPG does has is a higher flame speed and higher burn temprature. So a small amount of LPG will make the flame of the diesel run faster and hotter and burn more completely inside the engine.

Burning more completely in the engine gives more power and more power means you put your foot down less for the same speed hence saving fuel. It also means less soot and smog and a smoother cleaner running engine plus more zing for towing and overtaking.

There is no downside to good properly installed diesel/LPG system (other than the inital cost of installation).

Diesel/LPG systems have had a bad name in the past because of cheap crappy systems blowing motors. Too much gas at the wrong time cause pre ignation pushing the head up when it's suppose to be going down causing the engine to knock at the low end and snapping the conrods and shaft at higher levels.

A few simple rules are:

1: do your research
2: You get what you pay for. A cheap gas systems becomes dear when it blows your motor and don't plan on warranty covering it.
3: Stick an electronic system in an electronic engine. Mechanical systems don't have the response time or the safety features for a modern engine. A mechanical system is fine for an older engine but not a newer engine.
4: Do more research
5: Ask questions preferably from people who own a system.
6: Don't believe everything you read on the manafacturer's websites. "Inject" is a very loosely used term. Look for the words "Jet", "Ventrui", "Stepper" and "Needle Injector". This will tell you what the system really is.
7: Finally do more research

For people with with 2003 or newer vehicle is actually quite simple. Gas Tek is the only system on the market to make a legal emission certified kit. From what I can tell none of the others have passed ADR79/00/01/02 which is not to say they can't but from what I've read they haven't as yet.

Thorne

[Patrolling Paddy]

Yes and no. The old DGA system uses ventrui and stepper motor but DGA latests and greatest (so they say) GEN4 uses twin solinoids and jets which my opnion is actually a step backwards in technology.

Thorne


Ok then, it seems that they have changed then, I wasn't aware, is the older one still available? Not that I need it now.

PP

[thorne]

Ok then, it seems that they have changed then, I wasn't aware, is the older one still available? Not that I need it now.

PP

Don't think so. Wouldn't be in a great rush to. DGA's distribution companies for NSW, VIC and QLD is up for sale. For $400K you too can own a piece of DGA. Like rats deserting a sinking ship.

Thorne

[dazzler66]

Now what LPG does has is a higher flame speed and higher burn temprature. So a small amount of LPG will make the flame of the diesel run faster and hotter and burn more completely inside the engine.



Thanks Thorne

Its this part that interests me. Manufacturers develop thier engines with known flame paths and reinforce the combustion chamber in critical areas.

If you raise the combustion chamber temperature AND the flame path how does it affect the critical heat areas?

Have the manufacturers of these systems addressed this and if so how?

Dont take this as an attack or criticism, more questions from someone who has been around diesels all thier working life but may be a little stuck in thier ways. :)

cheers

[Patrolling Paddy]

If only Sequent had WA dealers. I do like the sound of their system, Not that I am unhappy with mine but better is better.

PP

[thorne]

If only Sequent had WA dealers. I do like the sound of their system, Not that I am unhappy with mine but better is better.

PP

Did you look at their site? They have five listed in WA
Western Australia (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=142)

Thorne

[thorne]

Thanks Thorne

Its this part that interests me. Manufacturers develop thier engines with known flame paths and reinforce the combustion chamber in critical areas.

If you raise the combustion chamber temperature AND the flame path how does it affect the critical heat areas?

Have the manufacturers of these systems addressed this and if so how?

Dont take this as an attack or criticism, more questions from someone who has been around diesels all thier working life but may be a little stuck in thier ways. :)

cheers

It's not an issue. Every part of the engine is over designed for safety otherwise the engine would blow on the first hill.

Problems only occur then there is too much gas causing pre ignition and throwing the engine timing off. Too little gas doesn't hurt the engine.

Generally the engine runs 10 degrees cooler because the combustion is more in the cylinder and less in the exhaust.

Thorne

[Patrolling Paddy]

Did you look at their site? They have five listed in WA
Western Australia (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=142)

Thorne

Well then don't I look silly, I rang a number for the sequent system previously and was told that there were no WA dealers but I must admit that I didn't know about the GasTek side of things. Oh well live and learn.

PP